Calvary Chapel and Gay Celibate Theology

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00:14

Welcome, everyone, to The Conversation. I'm your host, John Harris, to have a conversation today with Pastor Michael Selecki.

00:23

Pastor Mike, thank you for joining me. I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you for having me, John. And we were just together in New Mexico.

00:30

You're the pastor of Redemption Hill Church, and if people want to find out more, they go to Redemption Hill, New Mexico.

00:37

It's just nm .org, redemptionhillnm .org, and your sermons are there and everything else.

00:43

And if you're in that area, I would suggest in Albuquerque, check out the church, and it was a delight being there.

00:50

So thank you for that time, and I'll have to come back and do dirt biking with you at some point. Yeah, absolutely.

00:56

We would love it. I would love it, personally. You would? Yeah, well, I would love it, too. I've never done it. So here's why you're on, just so everyone knows what we're going to talk about.

01:07

Calvary Chapel is a denomination I really haven't talked about, and people who follow this podcast, as you,

01:14

I know, know this. They know that I talk about compromises in evangelical circles in Christianity, mostly along the line of social justice, which would include the

01:26

LGBT stuff. And Calvary, in my mind, I always associate them with good things, right?

01:33

Like, they were the ones that, before John MacArthur ever opened his church, they were on the beach doing services during COVID in California.

01:42

They're people of the Bible, you know, verse by verse. Chuck Smith, you know, I associate him, like, with just solid

01:49

Bible teaching for the most part. Like, if you ask a Calvary Chapel pastor what to do about something, they're going to open their

01:55

Bibles up. Like, that's what I think of when I think of Calvary Chapel. And it's concerning to me that, and you kind of were the first one to notify me that this was going on, that they're adopting some, not broadly perhaps, but in certain churches and in certain,

02:12

I guess, one of the denominations associated with them or associations, this kind of gay celibate theology.

02:19

And I guess that's my first question for you, because you were a Calvary Chapel pastor for years, and you were trained through Calvary.

02:28

Like, how did that happen, that they went from, well, I'm not saying they're all bad or anything, right? There's good things there.

02:33

But like, how does that happen with churches in a network like that, that are known for being Bible teaching?

02:40

Right. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, to be honest, I never would have thought that this adoption of gay celibate theology would come into a

02:52

Calvary. I just, I wouldn't have expected that at all. I love

02:58

Calvaries. I mean, that's where I cut my teeth, and I'm so thankful for Calvary Albuquerque, and even

03:05

Pastor Skip answering the call to come to Albuquerque way back in the 80s and to start teaching the

03:13

Bible. And the Lord just did a tremendous work. And I was able to,

03:19

I got saved, and I started going to a church that wasn't really good theologically when

03:25

I first got saved. But in a short order of time, just in a couple of months, God pulled me out of that and planted me right in Calvary Albuquerque.

03:34

And I sat under Pastor Skip and just saw it honestly. I mean, just one of the best Bible teachers in the nation, just verse by verse through the scriptures, love it, and just started to grow.

03:45

So many solid believers. So to see an adoption towards gay celibate theology, that it's okay, you can be gay as long as you just don't act in an action, engage in homosexual activity.

04:04

It's okay to be gay and a Christian is essentially what gay celibate theology teaches.

04:10

Or you might've heard for those maybe listening, if you're not familiar with maybe a distinction between side

04:17

A Christianity or side B Christianity, side A Christianity when it comes to homosexuality has to do with those that affirm gay marriage.

04:28

So they just straight up, I think any conservative Christian would look at it and go, we disagree with them.

04:34

That is not traditional view of marriage scripturally. No way the

04:40

Bible affirms homosexual marriage. So side A is we believe you can be a homosexual who gets married and remains in a monogamous homosexual marriage.

04:55

And the Bible's okay with that. I think everyone would readily see, go, that's not what the

05:00

Bible teaches. Side B on the other hand, it comes off like they adhere to an orthodox understanding of marriage, a traditional biblical view of marriage.

05:13

And as you work your way through, it seems like it, they say, we believe that marriage is between one man, one woman.

05:19

That's how God designed it. I agree with that. That is exactly what the Bible teaches. As you continue to get deeper, they'll say, we believe that being gay is not a morally culpable sin in and of itself.

05:36

That same sex orientation or same sex attraction is not a sin.

05:44

And so that's not something that you have to repent of. That's not something that needs to be changed or transformed.

05:52

There's some sort of holy good way that you could live that out. You just cannot engage in homosexual activity, but the attraction, the orientation itself is not a sin.

06:05

And that's where it departs from an orthodox view of sexuality and the way

06:12

God created us as image bearers. And it undermines the doctrine of sin. It undermines what the

06:19

Bible has to say about indwelling sin in the flesh. And so at the end of the day, it ends up undermining how you go about making disciples, doing evangelism, and encouraging people to grow in sanctification with their own walk with the

06:33

Lord. Well, we'll get into more broadly the different associations in Calvary and also,

06:40

I guess, Preston Sprinkle and what he's been doing at a Calvary church in Boise. But I want to maybe hear your story or have the listeners here, because part of what contributed to you becoming an independent

06:56

Bible church, which is I understand you're not with a denomination. Is that correct? Correct.

07:02

You were with Calvary though is over this issue. Yes. So why don't you like just let people know kind of like this was serious enough for you to actually leave.

07:13

What happened? What transpired that made you think like, okay, I can't really be part of Calvary Chapel because of this issue?

07:21

Sure. Sure. I still think, I mean, in my mind, I think there's a large majority, vast majority of Calvaries that one, they might not even be aware that this is happening in some of the

07:35

Calvaries. They, I don't think, I think that most

07:40

Calvary Chapel guys, if they were to just read about gay celibate theology or pick up like Greg Cole's book,

07:49

Single Gay Christian, you'd read it and go, this is not something to be embraced or had, but it is coming in to certain

07:59

Calvaries. And just, I guess, to be clear, Calvary never considers itself a denomination, but in some ways after being around so long, it's a flavor of Christianity, no matter how you want to slice it.

08:19

It's an association, I guess, but like hierarchy is kind of inevitable. I noticed this in Bible believing churches where they have the conference circuit that they like to go to.

08:29

And it's like, they look up to those guys, like there sort of ends up being like a, somewhat of an influence coming down.

08:36

But so, yeah. And so then there's like the Calvary Chapel distinctives, and there's some core like doctrines that Calvary guys, you have to adhere to.

08:47

Like there's a doctrinal statement when you're going to affiliate to be a Calvary pastor, you fill out where you stand on doctrines, on salvation, justification, eschatology, things like that.

09:04

So that they want to make sure do you adhere to these core beliefs and are you going to be in line with the

09:12

Calvary Chapel distinctives? And then there was maybe going back to when

09:17

Chuck Smith passed away, Calvary Chapel was all one affiliation.

09:23

Then after Chuck Smith passed away, his son -in -law, Brian Broderson took over Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa.

09:33

And within a short amount of time, it became clear that he was moving in a different direction than where Chuck Smith was moving and the way the distinctives would hedge things in and how he would go about affiliating different churches or different pastors that wanted to be

09:52

Calvary pastors. And that caused some of the older Calvary Chapel pastors that were directly like were discipled under Chuck Smith to go, hey, this is moving in a wrong direction.

10:06

So they created the Calvary Chapel Association. So there's Calvary Chapel Global Network, that's under Brian Broderson.

10:14

And I've always seen the Calvary Chapel Global Network as something that's, they're a theological stances when it comes to people affiliating.

10:25

So without those distinctives being there, it's going to allow,

10:30

I think for, it allows for greater people to join, but the unity on core issues is going to be gone.

10:40

So Calvary Chapel Association was established to say, no, we're trying to stay tried and true to the original vision.

10:48

So when I did eventually affiliate, growing up in Calvary, come out of Calvary when we did this church plant, when it came time to do the affiliation, we affiliated with Calvary Chapel Association.

11:02

Based on that, I looked at Calvary Chapel Associations, like they're going down a more tried and true path.

11:10

And there seems to be a stronger clarity of direction as to where we're moving as a brotherhood of affiliated churches going forward.

11:19

Okay. So, and just a little aside, you mentioned Calvary Global Network, and when

11:26

I was looking up online, I didn't do a lot of research. I really just did like a search engine just to see, hey, where's Calvary Chapel on same -sex attraction and homosexuality?

11:35

And this is one of the first articles that came up by David Guzik, and it's from 2015, but he says a homosexual can be a

11:43

Christian in right standing with God, if by homosexual, you mean one who is attracted to people of their same gender. So as long as you're not acting on it, just as you said, that's that gay syllabate theology.

11:53

And then you just mentioned Brian Brodersen, and he in 2015, this is long before Alistair Begg was saying similar things,

12:03

I suppose, but he says that you should consider going to a same -sex wedding, if that would be something that the

12:12

Lord could use in the life of your friend or relative or unbeliever. So it's just like, if I didn't know that there were two

12:23

Calvary Chapel networks, I would have thought like, okay, so they've just compromised, but like, this is only one association.

12:29

But the association that you were in, that you ended up leaving though, wasn't this one. You left the more solid one, so over the same thing.

12:40

So explain that maybe. Yeah, so I mean, I could start to see the conversation when it came to homosexuality in the evangelical church, a lot of talk was happening about same -sex attraction, and then whether or not that was actually sin.

13:02

And so even before what led to me parting ways with Calvary Chapel, I started looking into like, what is this argument about?

13:15

Like, what is being said here? And essentially what's being said is that a same -sex attraction is not sin.

13:31

It's not something you would need to repent of. It's not something that you would need to go before the

13:37

Lord and ask him help with, but the orientation itself is just fine.

13:44

And that's where I began to see, I think, the razor's edge, if it were. This was at Skip Isaac's church then?

13:52

So this was just me studying in general, just me studying in general about the issue.

13:59

So I started looking at it going, does the

14:06

Bible, it's like the Bible clearly says same -sex attraction is sin. Like we're desiring things or I'm attracted to things that are off limits, that God has clearly made off limits, and those attractions would be there as a direct result of the fall.

14:24

God did not create humanity to be same -sex attracted. Just because I desire something in my heart, just because I desire it, or even if it feels natural, doesn't mean that that's right.

14:41

I'm attracted to things that are not good, just because of my sinful nature.

14:47

And the Bible only gives one remedy for the flesh and the sin nature, and that's the cross.

14:53

We're to crucify the flesh and all of its sinful passions. So in my mind, it just became clear, same -sex attraction is sin, but they want to differentiate between same -sex attraction and full -blown lust and behavior.

15:12

And I don't see a distinction at all in scripture about that whatsoever.

15:19

Are we desiring things that are evil and wrong? It's evil and wrong. So we need to repent of it right then and there.

15:27

When it came to Calvary, the first time I noticed it was two years ago, and we were teaching through Leviticus, and we're just teaching book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse.

15:42

That's really kind of the Calvary MO. And so I could soon see that in May, when it comes to June, we're going to be in Leviticus 18 during the celebration of Pride Month.

15:58

And so I was like, okay, Lord, I guess this is where we're going. And then I got word that Calvary Albuquerque had invited

16:07

Greg Coles to come and speak at the church, and that he had wrote a book called

16:13

Single Gay Christian. This is the first time I'm being introduced to Greg Coles.

16:20

Well, when you hear it, I hear single gay Christian, and I go, that's, you know, it raises a red flag just with the title, but sometimes it's like, well, titles of books can be just written that way.

16:35

Yeah, it's a hook. Okay, let me read it. And then you read the inside and it's going to be okay. So I thought, well, maybe it's something like that.

16:41

But we want to go ahead and look, like, let's just check out, my wife says, well,

16:46

I'm going to check out his Instagram page and see what this guy's all about. And as soon as you look at his Instagram page, it just becomes very clear.

16:54

This is not a guy you should have come teach at your church.

16:59

I mean, he talks about celebrating Pride Month. He's got some other stuff about, you know, a gay church hunt, this like diagram that you're supposed to follow for for gay people to find the right church and make sure that they're affirming of your sexual orientation.

17:15

You look at this stuff and it's completely off base. That leads me the following day because Greg Coles, I found out about that on Sunday, the following day on a

17:28

Monday, I'm going to reach out. I knew one of the pastors there.

17:35

I just reached out via text message and expressed my concerns that this guy

17:41

Greg Coles is coming. I know he's going to be teaching there Wednesday night. I don't think he's a guy you should have.

17:48

Now, pushback had already been happening within Calvary, Albuquerque for weeks.

17:53

I happened to just find out about it the Sunday before he was coming to speak.

18:01

And the word I got back, I think, after several pushback is they decided not to have him come, which was good.

18:08

I thought, okay, they're not going to have him come. This thing's over. They were going to have another pastor teach on homosexuality and what the

18:18

Bible says about homosexuality just to clear things up, because I think for years they've been teaching people to be

18:25

Bereans. So when this comes up and they knew that this speaker's coming, he wrote this book and people looked inside of Single Gay Christian and saw what it said.

18:34

They had people rightly pushing back, going, why are we bringing this speaker?

18:41

And so they decided not to have him come. But that Wednesday evening, I don't normally watch their services online, but I said, well,

18:50

I'm going to watch. I want to hear what they have to say. So Pastor Nelson Walker was going to teach on homosexuality that night.

19:00

And Nate Heitzik, who's an executive pastor there, before Nelson teaches, he says, hey,

19:11

Gray Coles is not going to be here, but we still have his book in the bookstore. And it's the best, most biblical book on the subject.

19:19

I encourage everyone to go and buy it. And so that is what led me that Saturday.

19:32

Well, that Thursday I said, well, I'm going to buy a copy of this book and read it. Well, I didn't buy it.

19:37

I actually checked out a digital copy from the library, read it that day and read it cover to cover.

19:47

And it's just, there's some blatant, like glaring problems. Yeah, I've read it. Yeah. Just glaring, glaring problems.

19:53

Um, and in light of that, uh, I said, well, look at if this is being promoted publicly,

20:01

Calvary Chapel, uh, New Mexico is the regional overseeing church for the affiliated churches in this region.

20:11

So this is, this is my overseeing church. That's promoting this guy and saying this book is the best, most biblical book on the issue.

20:24

And, and I love, I mean, I do, I sincerely do love all these guys and, um, uh, they've played, made in major impacts in my own own life, but I, I'm like false teachings, false teaching, you know, it's just very, very, very clear.

20:41

And so, and that book, just so people know it does promote, uh, I think in a sort of subversive way, gay marriage, because he says, like you, you talked about the distinction between side

20:55

A and side B. And I'm like, I read that book and I thought, I don't know if this guy is going to like, going to be side a, or he's almost side a or where he's at because he's, he was open to same sex marriage at the end of the book.

21:09

And, uh, even said that, uh, there's other issues. Like I think he said, free will and predestination and like eschatology, maybe it was other stuff that he's like, well, these, these issues are, um, like of, of greater importance, you know?

21:25

And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, we're talking about like basic creation, like God created male and female and we're going to, so, um, so yeah,

21:35

I was pretty surprised when I read that, that there were people, but, but you know what? Like we, that's a warning to even me, like we can all, there's deception that can happen when we want to believe something when, right.

21:47

So that's why we need correction. And that's what it sounds like you tried to do. And you went through the proper channels, but you, you weren't really taken seriously or at least not seriously enough to change direction.

22:00

Yeah. And so that, that Sunday, I, I spoke openly about what was happening.

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I figured this is being endorsed publicly, uh, from Calvary, New Mexico.

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I want to share, uh, with the flock, uh, that the Lord's entrusted to, to my care to shepherd.

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And I just see this, this is, this is just false doctrine. And, and I'm not trying to encourage anyone to like go rile up and just start making nasty calls to Calvary Chapel, but just to be praying.

22:33

But here's what, here is what this book teaches. Um, it becomes like,

22:39

I'll, I'll share just to, just to read a quote from the book. So people can hear just very clearly what it has to say.

22:48

Uh, in chapter chapter four, uh, which is a chapter entitled what

22:53

God called good. Uh, he, he writes, uh, Greg Cole does about his own same -sex orientation.

23:01

He says, is it possible? I, I finally dared to ask myself that homosexuality isn't merely a disordered form of heterosexuality that instead every sexual orientation and right away

23:16

I go, every sexual orientation, every sexual orientation after the fall is a disordered form of the original sexuality that God had intended it to be.

23:26

And you jump just another paragraph down. He says, is it too dangerous, too unorthodox to believe that I am uniquely designed to reflect the glory of God, that my orientation, mind you, he's saying

23:40

I'm same -sex oriented. I'm a gay Christian that my orientation before the fall was meant to be a gift in appreciating the beauty of my own sex.

23:50

As I celebrate the friendship of the opposite sex that perhaps even within God's flawless original design, there might have been eunuchs people called to live lives of holy singleness.

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And so this happens quite a bit within gay celibate theology is to lump same -sex orientation into like a category of a eunuch.

24:12

And, uh, and then it says we recoil from the word gay from the very notion of same -sex orientation, because we know what it looks like only outside of Eden.

24:22

And I mean, I would pause there and go, um, it's only existed outside of Eden. It never existed in Eden.

24:29

That's right. And he says, we only noticed it outside of Eden where everything's gone wrong. But what if there's goodness hiding in the ruins?

24:37

What if the calling to gay Christian celibacy is more than just a failure of straightness? What if God dreamed it for me, wove it into the fabric of my being as he knit me together and sang me into life.

24:49

Uh, this is pro this is a problem because we're, we're no longer, uh, encouraging people like, uh, in, in first Corinthians six, where he says,

25:00

Hey, you know, uh, don't you know that neither drunkard nor reviler, nor immoral nor homosexual inherit the kingdom of God.

25:11

And he says, and such were some of you like you were this past tense, but God has washed you.

25:18

He's cleansed you. He sanctified you, uh, in, in Christ. And so to have, to hold onto an identity, uh, that is mutually exclusive with Christianity is a problem because your identity is going to drive the direction you're going to move and walk in.

25:38

I always liken it to like, if you were a Marine and you're in combat, I mean, once you sign up, you you're a soldier, you're enlisted, you're a

25:46

Marine. And so your motto is Semper Fi, always faithful. You're not going to leave a brother behind well in combat.

25:54

I mean, there might be gunfire. If my brother gets shot, you're like, I don't want to leave them behind, but you're scared. You're panicked.

25:59

Everything in you is telling you, Oh, I don't know, just up and leave. But you tell yourself

26:04

Semper Fi, I'm a Marine Semper Fi, but my identity is driving me to go in a direction that is contrary to where my cowardice is lying so that I would go and get my brother and move out.

26:18

The second you say, well, you know, I'm just, I'm just a civilian. I'm not really a Marine. Uh, I still am a civilian.

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So I can, I can walk away. You try to hold onto both of those identities at the same time, it becomes a problem and it's not going to help you move towards the real sanctification that the

26:37

Lord has for you. And at the end of the day, I think that's where a big problem with gay celibate theology is, is it's a truncated gospel that actually leaves someone like, like Greg Coles or anyone else who would be struggling with like same -sex desires in our place of hopelessness because, uh, gay celibate theology teaches that same -sex attraction is, is it's an unchangeable part of who you are.

27:07

He just baked it into creation. He just said, God designed me. So, so like, that's, if that's the design, then like, that's, that's the blueprint.

27:16

Like, um, it, it, and it strikes me as interesting. He said multiple, uh, well, he used the plural, right.

27:23

For orientations. Right. And you know, I, I wonder, I mean, some people don't like this, but whenever I hear these arguments,

27:31

I always wonder like, well, what if you put like pedophilia in like swapped out the word and it's,

27:36

I'm not saying they're the same thing or the same action that I'm just saying, like, is, would the principle still apply?

27:42

Would this be a good argument for pedophilia? Like, I'm not going to act on it, but it's like this hidden beauty that God wove into me.

27:49

And maybe it's the reason that I'm, I have friendships with children. Right. Like you'd say everything he just said, and we would all reject it.

27:57

We would all run for the Hills and say like this, like lock this guy up. Maybe not like, like, like we're going to keep an eye on him.

28:04

Like, but as soon as you say it about a popular sin that the world wants to celebrate, like there's a tremendous amount of pressure to accept that.

28:16

And so, um, so no, I appreciate that explanation. And I thought maybe what would be good, because I want to talk about Preston Sprinkle a little bit is as a pastor, since you've had to deal with this issue, maybe we could play some clips.

28:32

Um, I thought maybe first one from Calvary Global Network and, uh, just cause cause they're really like on board with this.

28:40

It seems like based on their website and then, um, uh, and then Preston Sprinkle, he's part of the other association, the one that you were part of, or at least a church in that association.

28:52

And I have an interview queued on that. So, um, if you want to share more, we can keep talking, but I thought maybe that would be a good thing for you to just like bring your pastoral, uh, expertise and refute kind of what's being taught out there.

29:06

Sure. Sure. Yeah. I, I mean, I, the only thing I would, I would say is, um, you know, there was back and forth about three, three in -person meetings with Calvary, New Mexico.

29:17

I had just trying to, I mean, pointing out things just like this in the book that I'm asking,

29:23

Hey, does, uh, does, does Calvary New Mexico believe that single gay Christian is a good book that's filled with good teaching that's beneficial for the body of Christ.

29:32

Right. And, um, I, I couldn't get an answer. Um, but at the, at the end, uh, the answer that I got back, uh, with my final meeting that I did meet,

29:45

I did meet with, with skip. And the final answer that he gave me was, uh, he believes it's one person's narrative and they decided not to, to act on that inclination.

29:57

And so he believes that that's a win. And I, I just, I, I don't think it's one, not, it's not really answering the question.

30:07

And two, um, it's not a win because at end of the day, it's introducing some concepts that are, are problematic.

30:15

And so in, in talking with Calvary Albuquerque, I also brought this up to, to the

30:22

Calvary Chapel Association, just to find out like, where does the association stand, uh, on this particular issue?

30:29

And the answer that I, I finally got back with after back and forth there was, uh, they believe that this is a social issue and that every

30:40

Calvary is free to choose, um, how they want to engage with this. And so, so upon from hearing from the, the, the leadership council that that's where they stood on it, that's what ultimately made me choose.

30:55

Well, I don't think, you know, for, you know, this is, this is, uh,

31:02

I don't think I can no longer be affiliated with Calvary Chapel Association. Now, I, I do know that there's,

31:09

I mean, I think there's, there's plenty of Calvary's that we might even know like, Hey, there's, there's stuff that's happening, but we think that this is good.

31:17

And hopefully they're hoping for change, uh, to happen. I think there's a ton of great things that are still happening in Calvary, uh, and, and reasons that people would want to choose to stay affiliated for me just at working my way there.

31:29

I thought, oh, I don't think this is for me. And part of the reason, even, uh, just, uh, agreeing to do the podcast with you, a question

31:37

I asked myself was, well, if I was another Calvary Chapel, uh, somewhere else in another state and the same situation happened and they got word back from the association that they believe it's just a social issue and any

31:53

Calvary can choose to deal with it as they want. Would I want to know about it? And, uh, the answer is

31:59

I would want to know about it. I would want to know about it. If I was joining, I would want to know about it. If I had stayed in and, and people can choose to do what they want to do, or if they want to address that, it is going to be an issue that has to be addressed.

32:12

Uh, eventually, I think people are wondering who are in Calvary. Is this a policy?

32:17

Is this in writing? Is this word of mouth? Like what is, is it email that I got back from?

32:23

And they believe, they believe that the distinctives are enough to hedge in, uh, what needs to be hedged in.

32:30

And, um, and I think obvious in my, in my opinion, it's not because this is obviously coming in.

32:39

And for me, without the clarity of language as to where, where is Calvary going to stand on this issue?

32:46

It's going to be very hard to keep unity, uh, moving forward. Uh, where, where does

32:52

Calvary stand on this? And, and the other people should know, look, I, I don't think everyone on the, even the leadership council of Calvary Chapel association even agrees with it.

33:02

Just the way the association works is, uh, from my understanding, the association for them to change anything or do anything, all 11 council members have to be on 100 % agreement to make a change.

33:17

So even if 10 council members decided, Hey, we should do something about this. We should, we should write some clarifying doctrinal statements.

33:24

If one of them says, no, I don't think we need to, uh, this is the direction like we're okay with just the distinctives as is, then nothing is going to change.

33:34

And so it, this getting brought up, like, honestly, my best read would be, well, all the council members heard about it, but if one person decided not to do anything, well then by default, you're going to have to say, we think it's a social issue and every church can just deal with it.

33:53

Yeah. That must've been tough for you. I mean, I, I can't imagine having that, that was your spiritual network.

33:59

That's where you cut your teeth, learning how to study and preach the Bible. And now there's a riff there, you know, like I just,

34:09

I don't know. My heart goes out to people that, that you did the right thing. Right. But it probably felt in the moment.

34:16

And for people listening who might be in a similar predicament where they just like, they know the right thing, but it's like, Oh, this cost is going to be so high.

34:23

It's going to hurt. You're okay. I just, I guess I just want to get that out there. You, you,

34:28

I mean, I, I'm sure that it still hurts in some ways, but like, sure. You have a thriving church.

34:34

You're the people there are happy and growing and, and you came out the other side of this following the

34:40

Lord and the Lord rewarded you for it. Like you weren't just abandoned by your spiritual network.

34:47

You still have a spiritual network. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and to let people know too, that there are other,

34:54

I do know of other Calvary's in this area when the issue got, rose up and they found out about it.

35:01

There were other Calvary's that personally wrote Calvary, New Mexico to say,

35:07

Hey, what, what's, what's going on here. So, but it kind of stays contained,

35:12

I think at least just to this region. I don't think anyone really knows that,

35:18

Calvary Chapel Association, at least in me pursuing and trying to find out, well, where do we stand on this issue that they landed?

35:27

It's just a social issue and Calvary's are free to, to choose what they want to do with it.

35:34

And so at the end of the day, like I do love Calvary's, but it was in my mind, this is a deal breaker.

35:42

If we're, if we can't figure out, you know, this issue, it's only going to lead to further liberalization, uh, within the church.

35:52

Like if, if we can't square this away, it's going to be a problem. Well, Skip Hysak's kind of a big name too. I mean, it's, it's not just like it is local, but it's also like, yeah, that's a pretty influential church just in the whole movement.

36:05

I, as I understand it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Skip is, and the

36:10

Lord has used them just in a tremendous way. And so I think for me, I was really taken back because I thought there's,

36:17

I mean, for 14 years trained and discipled their ministry school there,

36:23

I never, for the life of me would have even thought that, uh, something like this, their bookstores always, they've always tried to do a good job, even vetting out books, like which books we'll have.

36:35

And, and even in the first, so early on in the Calvary chapel days, um, vineyard movement branched out.

36:43

It was a branch off of Calvary. For John Wimber, uh, he's wanted to emphasize signs and wonders and pursuing like experiences with the spirit over this, the word of God.

36:55

And Chuck Smith said, you can't basically, that's where some of the distinctive start hedging into.

37:01

It's like, you can't be, if you're going to do that, you can't be a Calvary. Our focus is going to be on, on the word of God, you know, and any experience with this, the, the

37:11

Holy spirit has to be in submission to what the scriptures say. We're going to emphasize the word.

37:18

And so if you're going to do this, you don't, don't be a Calvary chapel. Don't call yourself a

37:23

Calvary chapel. And that's, I think we're at a spot, even on an issue that's more important where it's like, if you're going to embrace this theology, um, then just don't call yourself a

37:35

Calvary. You know, this is the direction we're going to go and we're going to be united on this. We're not going to say it's, you can be gay and a

37:43

Christian. Um, yeah, yeah. It's like, you wonder, and it's all speculative.

37:48

So I, I, you know, I don't want to say one way or the other, but like, you know, Chuck Smith, we're still around.

37:54

I know people are saying the same thing about, uh, cause crew is like in turmoil over this same issue right now.

38:01

Um, you know, and, uh, you know, they ask the same questions. Like if, if the people, the founding generation was still around, like some, some of the old timers will say like, oh, they never would have put up with this.

38:12

Right. Right. But it's, it's like, yeah, I guess that's a cycle that, uh, not just churches, but businesses and other things go through, right?

38:22

Like you have these solid founders that are put in the work and stuff. And, and, and then, you know, we have such a blessing that's passed down to us.

38:30

We have this great institution that's preaching the Bible and teaching and we take it for granted, but, but it could go away.

38:35

It could go away very quickly if we don't defend it, if we don't defend the truth. And that's the lesson

38:41

I think in the, in your passion. So, um, so yeah, thank you for, for sharing that with everyone.

38:47

And I do know that there are listeners in Calvary who, uh, they listened to this podcast.

38:55

They have the same concerns. They're, they're solid. They're into their churches.

39:00

Oh yeah. I mean, honestly, if I, if it was me and I was moved somewhere else and I was looking for a church,

39:06

I would be looking right away. I go, well, where's the local Calvary in this area? That's just, I would still be doing that.

39:12

I would go, well, where's the Calvary? I think, uh, this is good. Now, if I started finding out, okay, there's, they're starting to buy into some of these, uh, social justice, uh, issues, um, especially with gay celibate theology,

39:27

I go, Oh, I, I'm a deal breaker. Yeah. It's a deal breaker. So let me, so we've been going about 39 minutes.

39:35

Um, let, let me do this, uh, because I want to talk a little bit about Preston Sprinkle and, uh, and I don't know how much time we want to give to,

39:44

I have two videos queued up. I know you watch them both, but the first is an interview that was posted,

39:50

I think like two years ago. It wasn't that long ago on, uh, Calvary, uh, global network, their website, right?

39:57

So they're the ones that are pushing this more. They don't just let churches decide. Well, I guess they, maybe they do, but they're, they're like very out front on their website.

40:04

This is what we believe. And it's gay celibate theology. So, uh, you can tell me to stop whenever you want, or we could just play through the clip, but this is what, this is an example of what you were talking about Pastor Mike, uh, with that theology for people who don't know.

40:18

Someone we're doing like a, a difficult topic series or whatever at our church.

40:24

And they were talking about all the, you know, weird politics and LGBTQ.

40:31

And so that night I was like, so stressed out about like, man, what are they going to say?

40:36

And like, are people looking at me? And like, do people know? And, and the conversation, the, the sermon that the guy preached, he talked about the difference between temptation and actions.

40:51

And that was the first time in my entire life that I'd ever heard someone say, like, you can be attracted to the same sex and still live in accordance to God's will if you choose not to act on it.

41:05

And so for me, that was like a breath of fresh air, but then it was also a new thing. Like, okay, now go for it.

41:12

I, I, this is, I think the common thing that you'll hear again and again, when it comes to side

41:20

B or gay celibate theology is that, uh, um, you, you, you can have these attractions, but as long as you don't act on it, um, you're okay.

41:34

And what ends up happening is, is it completely removes what the

41:39

Bible has to say about our sin nature in the flesh. And so for, for Jesus, when he says,

41:47

Hey, it's not what, it's not what comes on the outside, uh, that defiles you. It's what's on the inside that defiles you.

41:56

All right. And so, so then he goes on and he goes on to define what that is. He's like evil thoughts, adulteries, like just evil thoughts, thinking things that are contrary to God's goodness,

42:11

God's holiness, the way that God would have those evil thoughts. They're, they're, they're something that defiles us from within.

42:19

And then even in Galatians where we're, we're commanded to walk in the spirit and to put to deed, put to death, uh, the works of the flesh.

42:27

It's the same thing. It's like you're to crucify the flesh and it's, it's evil passions and desires.

42:36

And so this side of the fall, you and I, we, we have to, we're engaging in spiritual battle all the time.

42:44

There are things that arise up from our sin nature that are no longer to define who we are because we've been made new in Christ.

42:56

And if I'm in Christ and I'm identified with his death, burial and resurrection, I'm supposed to start taking every thought captive and bring it to the obedience of Christ.

43:07

So the second you start saying, well, same sex attraction is okay. It's not a sin.

43:14

You can just allow it to be there. You're, you're, you're, you're starting off on the wrong foot.

43:20

You're making it so that these people, anyone who's struggling with this sin, with, with this desire or attraction, you're telling it it's okay.

43:29

You don't have to engage in battle at this level. Only once it starts to become like an action, or if you really start to think, you know, you're really lusting this way.

43:39

And so I, I, I would say if I had some attraction, just to your point,

43:45

John, if you put it in a different context, like, well, I'm a minor attractive person. And I'm, I'm attracted to, you know, if, if someone said, well,

43:54

I'm attracted to little kids, we would go, this is crazy. You that perish the thought, put that thought instantly to the cross and Lord, why did that even cross my mind?

44:06

That's, that's not right. Maybe it just rose up in you. The thing is, is our flesh can, it can produce evil thoughts, evil things like that.

44:17

What am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to take it captive and bring it to the obedience of Christ, but we're trying to normalize same -sex attraction and homosexuality and LBGTQ issues as a normal category of personhood that's to be accepted.

44:35

And I, and I think all this stuff comes off as a means it's from what I can see from Preston Sprinkle and Greg Cole.

44:42

It's like, the church has been doing things wrong for 2000 years. They don't know how to treat,

44:47

I mean, multiple times in single gay Christian, Greg Coles refers to himself as a sexual minority.

44:53

And so it's the church that's been oppressing minorities. And he'll even go on to say, well,

45:02

I call myself gay, but that's not, you know, that's the best way to describe what I'm dealing with.

45:07

So he doesn't want to surrender that he thinks it's, it's okay, but I'm still a Christian and it's fine.

45:13

It's not primarily what defines him, but he ends up showing his hand when he starts talking about how he's at a prayer meeting and back at the

45:21

Obergefell decision, someone comes in whom he'd started to know. And like, he talks about this in the book and they want to pray like,

45:29

Hey, there's this, this, this evil LBGTQ agenda that the

45:34

Supreme court is dealing with. And we need to be praying against this, that this wouldn't come into our country.

45:40

And even while you're reading the book, he's like, he started to tremble his, he said, he clinched his fists.

45:46

And he just thought about how every person like him, that's just trying to live out their natural feelings.

45:52

They would feel so attacked by just someone praying this way. And I go, so what the church is like, we can't pray against evil or evil agendas.

46:03

This it's, so there's this, like this, the push I think comes from like the church, we're going to teach you the new loving, compassionate way to really help

46:15

LBGTQ people. And if they have this orientation, that's fine.

46:20

Just as long as they don't act on it. And this is what the church needs to accept. And I would just say, it's starting off on the wrong foundation.

46:27

We, we ought not to accept it. We ought to reject it outright. And, and anyone who's turning to Christ, anyone who's repenting and turning to him, their identity needs to be wholly anchored in, in him.

46:40

Good word. Yeah. This is, I forgot to say the name. This is Brenna Blain, by the way, you're listening to The Voice here on a guest on the podcast called

46:50

The Good Lion Podcast that's put out by Calvary Chapel Global Network. I have to decide, am

46:57

I going to live this lifestyle that the world is telling me will make me happy? Or do

47:02

I live this other lifestyle that is in accordance with my faith? And as I wrestled with that, that was like from age 16 to 17, it changed from this lifestyle, according to my faith to a lifestyle that I know will give me peace.

47:19

You know, I would say, do we believe being homosexual is a sin? Like I would say,

47:25

I don't believe it is because I can't find any biblical arguments calling Christians to be straight, but I do see biblical arguments calling us to be radically obedient towards Christ.

47:36

And then that means if we are engaging in sex by the sexual ethic that God has given to us.

47:43

I should probably stop there because I heard that before where people, they'll phrase it like God doesn't call you to be heterosexual, calls you to be holy or something like that.

47:54

Right. Yeah. And yeah, there's in their mind, it's like, well,

48:02

I'm wired this way in an almost, you get contradictory statements, but it's like, this is a mutable part of who

48:12

I am. And maybe I was called, maybe the way I was created as I was a holy unit called to singleness.

48:19

And so that's where these desires are. And being same -sex attracted allows me to build unique friendships with other people that can be compassionate and helpful.

48:30

But if I'm just attracted this way, it's not out of step with who God really made me.

48:37

There's some sort of like holy way I can live this out. And I would just say all of us have desires that are contrary to who

48:51

God originally made us and who we've been made new in Jesus.

48:57

And so every day we're called to pick up our cross and follow Christ. And every day we're to set aside our desires and bring them to the obedience of Jesus.

49:07

And so as soon as I start desiring things that aren't in accordance with who Christ is and the desires that he wants me to have,

49:18

I start doing battle with those things. The second we start saying, oh, this is just okay. I don't really need to be engaging with spiritual battle here.

49:26

I don't think you're going to experience real transformation. The Bible does promise that God brings we're to be transformed through the renewing of our mind.

49:35

Now that's a lifelong process, but to write off that, well, it's okay. Well, what person who is struggling with this sin, with these attractions is going to start engaging with spiritual battle.

49:48

If you just say it's okay on that level, you won't. It also, to me, it seems like it's sort of a subtle attack on the scripture too, because you have to be saying, for what she said to be true, it would mean that there's these people

50:04

God created that he never gave any instructions to. He wrote this whole book, and he has so many commands for husbands and wives, and even for single people.

50:14

But there's no category for them. He just left them out. To me, their whole gripe is that the church leaves us out.

50:22

But their argument in favor of not being left out is that, well, the Bible leaves us out.

50:28

That would seem to reinforce the whole point. It's not in accord with God's design.

50:35

He didn't have to address it because if you had a cookbook that was the gluten -free cookbook, and you're like, well, there's no gluten dishes in there.

50:43

It's like, right, because it's a gluten -free cookbook. So to your point, after one of the meetings

50:50

I had with Calvary, New Mexico, I was encouraged if I wanted to have a real understanding of what the book was saying, that I would need to reach out to Greg Coles myself so that he could explain himself.

51:04

Now, I think it's clear as day, just you read it, it's there. They're saying his book doesn't make sense is what they're saying.

51:12

Well, and I did reach out to Greg Coles, and I just wanted to say to your point, at one point

51:23

I was stressing and writing back, communicating over Facebook Messenger with him, so do you think that bisexuality, homosexuality, all these orientations existed before the fall in a holy and good way, and then just after the fall, it became corrupted?

51:42

And he's always skirting around the issue. So his response back to me was, there's a point at which

51:50

I think we're being undeniably speculative in the ways we talk about prelapsarian, pre -fall realities.

51:57

And that's why this section in Single Gay Christian is framed in terms of questions rather than answers.

52:03

And I would say false teaching always creeps in through questioning.

52:08

Path God said. Yes, yes, exactly. That's like from the beginning, you question what

52:15

God has revealed as plain and true, and that's what allows false ideas to come in.

52:20

And he says, but I don't think there's any definitive truth that can be offered biblically as to precisely how we ought to understand a pre -fall state.

52:27

I just disagree. I think it's very clear. Like God has given us sufficiently enough in Genesis to understand when

52:33

God created man, and when he created woman, he created them so that they would be attracted towards each other.

52:40

And that would be designed to facilitate marriage and filling the earth and all of these things.

52:46

You would never walk away from just a plain reading of scripture going, well, I guess we got to speculate about, I mean, maybe there was all these things before the fall.

52:53

No, it's so clear. He's given us all we need for life and godliness. There's a sufficient understanding of who we are as image bearers, how he created us male and female, and the direction that that ought to move towards.

53:07

But he also goes on to say, I certainly don't think my pre -fall sexuality would have been heterosexual.

53:14

Heterosexuality being fallen as it is. I just want you to see some of the confusing language that comes in. But it also wouldn't have been homosexual for exactly the same reason.

53:22

As to whether I might have been ordained towards marriage or towards holy singleness in my pre -lapsarian state, that is purely imaginative question that I'm happy to ask without ever knowing the answer to.

53:34

It does seem to me that some aspect of what we now post -lapsarian experience as sexual orientation might be somewhat akin to personality types in the sense that there can be morally neutral differences in people's disposition.

53:49

I go, no, this is not true at all. But even there, here's the real key to undermining the sufficiency of scripture.

53:57

Even there, I'd want to speak observationally and speculatively. Here's what seems to be true based on our current experience and evidence rather than categorically based on some definitive statement of biblical anthropology.

54:14

And I would just go, well, bingo, that's where we differ. I would want to make what

54:19

I understand on a definitive understanding of what the Bible reveals about who we are anthropologically as image bearers, those that were created in his image.

54:29

Greg Coles is content to go, well, we have to speculate and here's what we know based upon our current experience and what social sciences are currently telling us.

54:41

So those things carry more authority than what the scripture has. And that really is what's behind driving the gay celibate theology.

54:56

The view is that scripture does not speak sufficiently to this issue.

55:02

And so we're kind of free to speculate about some of this stuff here. If we were in any other time, this would be cuckoo.

55:11

People would just think this is crazy that someone's advocating this, but because we're in this political environment where there's so much pressure on Christians to just not just tolerate, but celebrate this sin.

55:24

I think that's the only reason that this stuff kind of gets any airplay, but all right.

55:30

So here's the last part of this podcast from Calvary Chapel Global Network.

55:35

There are many Christians that are still on the fence and they would feel like to say, you can be gay and be

55:42

Christian is like blasphemy. But it's like, what are we actually saying when we say that?

55:48

We're talking about somebody who is experiencing the attraction, not necessarily somebody who's living it out.

55:53

And when we're so concerned with controlling the conversation and making sure that people only talk about it in the terms that we want them to, we're never going to make any progress in helping people.

56:04

Have you faced criticism from Christians who are like, no, like what you're doing

56:09

Brenna isn't enough until you get to the point where you no longer have that attraction. Like you're not, you're not okay.

56:15

Like you have to, you have to get to that point where that's gone or it doesn't count. Have you dealt with people who've kind of had that mentality?

56:23

I've, I've had minimal conversations with people who would say, no,

56:29

I think attraction is still a sin. And most of the time that's in like passing or internet situations where I'm like,

56:40

I don't really feel like I need to dig further into this. Yeah. Like, okay.

56:45

So I guess I included those clips to just show the sort of condescension they have towards people who would challenge these ideas.

56:52

They're trying to control the conversation. Their opinions don't matter. Uh, and that would be you.

56:58

Yeah. And it's the sad thing is, is, is like, um, those that would hold to,

57:05

I think just a biblical view that, that there are attractions that we have that are just sinful that arise from our fallen nature, the flesh that the

57:15

Bible commands us to, to mortify them, to put them to death, to take these thoughts and bring them to the obedience of Christ.

57:23

That's just normal Christian living. And, and so, um, again, they're, they're saying,

57:29

Hey, this is, uh, it's okay to be gay because you're just, that's what you experience. And so this is who you are instead of taking what scripture says about who we are and who we now are in Christ and living by, by that reality.

57:45

My sin nature is no longer to define who I am. Do I still wrestle with it, uh, in a practical fashion because I haven't attained to perfection yet?

57:58

Absolutely. I mean, Paul hadn't attained yet. We haven't attained yet, but I'm going to continue to press on.

58:05

And part of that pressing on is every thought to the obedience of Christ. And what is disheartening, um, is now with the conservative evangelical church adopting, uh, gay celibate theology and same sex attraction as, as okay and not sinful.

58:25

And that you can be a gay Christian. That's an acceptable personhood category that can be attached to being a

58:32

Christian. When, when those of us that want to stand on what the scripture saying about our new identity in Christ and what we're supposed to do with the desires of the flesh, what happens is

58:44

I can try to do it in the most loving way possible. And I would surely, I would want to reach out compassionately, let people know what

58:51

Christ has done for them. And anyone who would be struggling with these sins and these desires in the church,

58:57

I want to stand with you and help you, you know, I'll pray with you. I don't think the answer is, let me come out of the closet and embrace this identity.

59:05

The answer is I need, I need help bearing, like, let me go to my brother in Christ and ask for prayer.

59:13

And here's what's happening. And you could be a little bit vulnerable and say, I need help just like I would with other lusts and other sins that would happen in my life.

59:21

Other wrong desires. I say, you know what? I've noticed this pattern. I'm desiring these things that are wrong. Would you please pray for me and start getting the help you need?

59:30

But if the, if the church on a whole starts to adopt this, this theology, it's actually going to make it even harder.

59:39

The world already thinks Christians hate everybody. We're just bigots and hate people.

59:45

We don't think Jesus really loves them. I'm like, no, Jesus died for everyone.

59:52

He yeah, it's a horrible, it is a horrible, a horrible sin. And, and I don't want to make any qualms about it.

01:00:00

It is an abomination. The scripture makes that clear, but Jesus died for every horrible sin.

01:00:06

And if you turn to him, he's willing to make you new in him. And so if the church adopts this, it just makes any church that stands against it.

01:00:14

I think look, look more hateful. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. There was a girl recently who had like a huge OnlyFans account.

01:00:22

She just got saved. I don't know if you heard the story, but she was basically like a porn star,

01:00:28

I guess. And, but now she's a Christian and you know what Christians did. I mean, she's, she's been pretty much welcomed.

01:00:35

I mean, she's been like, it's been celebrated from what I've seen. Christians are saying they're not shaming her.

01:00:41

Maybe there's a few, you know, kooks on the fringe or something, but like in general, Christians are saying, praise God, you know, another one is just like me.

01:00:49

I was saved. She's saved. And yeah, I think so those who are listening, who might be like have an ax to grind with the church.

01:00:58

Like, yeah, I mean, there's Christians who do bad things. We're sinners, you know not everyone who's even calls themselves

01:01:04

Christian is a Christian, but like the general, like most Christians, true Christians, that's how they behave.

01:01:10

That's how Jesus is. He welcomes even the prostitute, right. Who repents. So, so, okay.

01:01:17

So maybe switching gears a little bit here real quick. So I mentioned this to you this morning,

01:01:24

I noticed, or this afternoon rather, Megan Basham and Preston Sprinkle were kind of going at it, and really this is what it came down to.

01:01:32

This guy named, I guess it's Tim Whitaker. He is a self -described transgender person,

01:01:39

I guess. So, and he's speaking at this conference, Theology and the

01:01:44

Raw. It's called Exiles in Babylon is the name of the conference. Trans identifying speaker.

01:01:49

So that's how I guess she describes him. And then so Preston Sprinkle mocks her and says, wait until she finds out.

01:01:55

I also have a Catholic speaking and a Democrat and a Palestinian speaking. And he might have a thing or two to say about the

01:02:02

American empire. And, and then for, you know, they just get into it and it's just like, he mocks her.

01:02:07

He just makes light of it. And she's saying, are you going to like call this guy out as a false teacher?

01:02:12

And you know, of course he's not. So that's like a small sample of, I guess, the kind of thing that you're going to get at this

01:02:19

Exiles in Babylon conference. Now here's the thing, this conference, for those who know, who don't know, this isn't at like a public, it's not like at a town hall.

01:02:30

They didn't rent a room somewhere to do just like a, like, I don't understand like a university. You have like maybe a couple of different views presented on a subject or that's not what this is.

01:02:40

This is actually held at Calvary Chapel, Boise, and it's been held there for the last, well, since, since it's begun in 2021, every year, including this year, this conference is hosted at Calvary Chapel in Boise, Idaho.

01:02:59

And it's this Calvary Chapel is not part of the, what we were just listening to as part of the global network.

01:03:06

This is actually part of the Calvary Chapel Association, the more conservative one. And so they're not part of global network, part of this association and they've been hosting this.

01:03:14

And so I just thought like, I was like, that's really weird. You know, that's, that's interesting to me that because this would seem to be at the very least, like violating something in their statement of faith or their, what did you call it?

01:03:29

Calvary Chapel's got, what do they call them? The Calvary Distinctives. And I think, you know, the

01:03:35

Calvary Distinctives coming out, you know, decades ago, this is not the fight the church was in, you know, at that time.

01:03:46

Now we're at a spot where I would just say false doctrine and heresy has always pushed the church towards greater clarity to what it's always taught.

01:04:00

So that when, you know, the denial that Jesus was

01:04:05

God and human flesh is pushing for certain councils to come together. And now we need to make a creed to go, no, this is, this is what this, this is what we've taught all along.

01:04:16

This is what the scripture clearly says. And so false doctrine, false doctrine arises.

01:04:22

This deception comes in to pervert the path that, that Christians are upon the way that we've always been taught.

01:04:31

And so false doctrine and heresy has always driven greater clarity.

01:04:36

I just think we're at a spot where this particular doctrine with, it's like there was no need to do anything when it was just side

01:04:45

A. We just completely affirm homosexual marriage. Two people can get, two guys can get married and that, and we call that Christianity.

01:04:53

Well, I think, well, the, were the distinctives enough to deal with that? Certainly. Yeah. But now when we're talking about same sex attraction, not being sin, you can be gay and be a

01:05:05

Christian. You have to have person preacher or give spiritual instruction at your church.

01:05:10

Like that seems like a no brainer to me, but I guess. Yeah. I think in all these books too, when I think I was having a trans, a trans

01:05:18

Christian speak at this conference, what Preston's a newer book he wrote called

01:05:26

Embodied that deals with like transgenderism. Every, so reading Greg Cole's book, reading

01:05:32

Preston's book, Embodied, checking out other resources that Preston has put out, everything's always couched.

01:05:39

Like, let me show you how complicated and how hard and difficult. It's always that way.

01:05:47

The very limited exposure I've had, I've listened to, I haven't listened to a lot of him, but I always pick up on that with him.

01:05:52

Yeah. Oh, it's always that. And then, and then he'll land like in his book, Embodied, he'll land at spots where you go.

01:05:59

So do you see, I land at this orthodox position. I, Preston will freely say that he thinks that your gender is tied to your biologically created body.

01:06:11

And we would go, well, I agree with that. But what he does to subtly move the line as he goes, it's so calm, listen to these guys, listen to how hard this is, their experience.

01:06:21

That's so difficult. Do you see even how they read certain texts? And it's just, it's like, you know, predestination versus free will, infant baptism or baptizing adults.

01:06:32

Like the churches, we've had disagreements over stuff like that. We've been able to walk together. Well, we need to be able to walk together on, on issues like this.

01:06:41

And so then even though you read through his book, Embodied, and there's several things in there that are just problematic.

01:06:47

He ends like each chapter at a spot where you'll go, well, I guess he's landing in a right spot.

01:06:53

And then at the end of the book, he pushes for, we should use pronoun hospitality.

01:07:00

If someone's really struggling with this, then, then we need to use pronoun hospitality.

01:07:07

Yes. Yeah. Unfortunately. I like, I think you and I just see that the same way. It's like, I don't want to lie to this person about who

01:07:15

God has actually made them. Like they're deceived. Their felt reality isn't in accordance with reality, with truth.

01:07:24

What, what the Bible says about who they are and who they're to be in Christ. And so when

01:07:29

I look at other ministries that, that Preston has influenced and in particular, like posture shift, there's a, a, a, a lady on there,

01:07:40

Leslie, I forget her last name, but, but she's like, I'm a transgender. She's a transgender person with the pronouns, they, she uses again and again, well in the book, his book embodied, he speaks about Leslie and he talks in his book about how if you use her biological pronouns, she, it basically causes her to be undone.

01:08:06

And she, she stresses out and has all these issues. And, and so we don't want to do that to her.

01:08:12

We need to continue to keep using the pronoun they, and, and now this person is a ministry leader at posture shift.

01:08:20

And in my mind, I just thought we're not helping this, this lady, we're not helping her at all.

01:08:25

And why would I have someone leading a ministry that comes undone?

01:08:31

If you just use the proper pronoun to refer to who she is, if she has no stability in Christ to move forward and embrace who

01:08:41

God has really made her, why is she leading in a ministry saying, Oh, well, you know,

01:08:47

I, I still have a stable or immature, yeah. It has issues that need to be worked through. So you see, they say one, they say we're

01:08:54

Orthodox on this hand and try to make strong cases, but then you see the way it's, it's, it's laid out.

01:09:01

I go, this is crazy. Is posture shift connected to Calvary at any way, or I, I, to be honest,

01:09:09

I don't know. I look at, I look at the center. I can have it.

01:09:15

Center for biblical sexuality. I think they call it the center for faith, faith, sexuality, and gender, which is run by, by Preston Sprinkle and their senior research fellow is

01:09:27

Greg Coles. And if you look at their endorsements, it's like Francis Chan endorses them.

01:09:35

Matt Chandler endorses them. I read the front of the book embodied and I go, Sean McDowell endorses it.

01:09:41

I go, this is the amount of McDowell really? Yes. So these are people that I actually, that, that I've gleaned a lot from, you know, over the years and in particular areas.

01:09:54

So especially when I see Sean McDowell, I would go, I would never even imagine that he would put a stamp of approval on the book embodied, especially when it ends with conclusions that we should use pronoun hospitality and things like that.

01:10:10

You know, though, I've noticed that this is maybe a rabbit trail. I don't want to get too deep into, but like the higher you get in these schools and conference circuits and churches and denominations, like the more pressure that there is to conform to what everyone else is doing.

01:10:25

And Sean is in all the guys you actually just mentioned are in highly pressurized environments.

01:10:30

And like, I remember a few years ago I had, I private messaged Sean McDowell because he had shared something from Jude three project.

01:10:37

And I pointed out that Jude three project has promoted blatant heresy at times. And he actually like reached out and he thanked me actually.

01:10:47

He did not put a retraction out there. I think he just deleted it. It would have been nice. Right. If he retracted it.

01:10:52

But, you know, since then I know like he's at what schools he had. He's at Talbot.

01:10:59

He's at Talbot, but it's all, but he's also a professor, isn't he? It's Lyle. Is it

01:11:05

Lyle? And their seminary is Talbot in Lyle. I think that might be how it were.

01:11:11

Well, I should probably buy a Bible. Not Lyle. Yeah. I think that's what that one's about.

01:11:18

But, you know, like I know Ed Stetzer is there now in a prominent position. He's super woke in my opinion for evangelical standards.

01:11:26

That is, you know, Matt Hall, who was pushing critical race theory stuff at Southern seminary.

01:11:31

He's there. I think he's like their, their Dean or president or something. So Preston Sprinkle comes out of Biola and Talbot.

01:11:40

Oh, he does. Yeah. So there's, yeah. I think that was a master seminary guy. Maybe he's both.

01:11:45

Maybe. So I guess maybe I should be wrong. You're all from California. That's the lesson here.

01:11:54

From what I remember, he got his PhD through Biola.

01:12:02

And so then I see these guys and it could be like, look, there's something that you, there's statements people could put out that you realize like years later, they realize, no,

01:12:12

I don't side with this. I don't agree with this. Sean McDowell he might not agree with it now. He might say, no,

01:12:18

I, I realized there's something amiss here. And I wish I never would have endorsed the beginning of the book embodied.

01:12:26

I don't think he's Biola. Just, just to clarify, I, it says on his website, Aberdeen university, he taught at Cedarville and I don't know, but so either way, but no.

01:12:37

Well, I appreciate that. I don't want to be spreading. I don't need to be spreading falsehood and speculations. I can see why they were concerned about you.

01:12:49

So I guess the final thing, I mean, we don't have to go through all of this. There's actually one particular part that I wanted to play, but the reason

01:12:57

I wanted to just show you show this is this is a video of two of the pastors at Calvary chapel,

01:13:04

Boise, which is like I said, in the more conservative association. And so this isn't just Preston sprinkles, like renting their building.

01:13:14

So he can do like, I, we would disagree with that, but, but it's, that's at least let more detached.

01:13:20

This is like their endorsement, in my opinion, like this is, it's a sign that they're getting that the controversies formed, they're getting pushed back.

01:13:28

And so they did this podcast. I think this was about a month ago with Preston to just basically say, we're going to be doing this conference with the transgender trans identifying speaker and, and others, and, and we're supportive of it.

01:13:42

And so, so here's Preston sprinkle with the two pastors. We do is we value healthy, diverse thought.

01:13:51

We don't, you know, we don't, we're not going to put some on stage to tell us some kind of heretical view, or even if we do have somebody share their viewpoints, we're going to have somebody else with, with, with another viewpoint and see them dialogue with each other.

01:14:05

We have lots of what I call dialogical debates. So not that angry kind of debating, but like a genuine dialogue.

01:14:12

We have people with different perspectives and they're going to engage each other and we're going to do a lot more conversations.

01:14:18

So a lot of the talks are only like 15 minutes, you know but then if it is a controversial topic,

01:14:24

I typically want to get both sides represented. So we're doing a whole pre -conference this year on the theology and politics of Israel, Palestine.

01:14:33

Even as I say that people listening, so I have four people coming to are going to be more sympathetic with the

01:14:41

Israel side. And two are going to be more sympathetic with the Palestinian side. Nobody's sympathetic with Hamas just to be clear.

01:14:48

But you know, you got a lot of, you know, civilian casualties in Israel's response. And some people were saying that that's kind of something we really need to talk about.

01:14:55

And other people were like, yeah, but look at what Hamas did to Israel. And the one thing we can all agree on, it's super complex.

01:15:03

So let's get together. There it is. But you know, it's funny when Megan called him out this afternoon, he didn't say, oh no, you don't understand.

01:15:11

We're having a debate. There's someone that's going to debate this other speaker who's trans -identifying.

01:15:17

Like he didn't say that. He just mocked her. I don't know. It's strange.

01:15:24

I guess if you're going to refute, we're having this person in because we disagree with them, we're going to refute them.

01:15:30

But that's not what he's, I don't really know what's going on in there exactly, like specifically.

01:15:36

But what I do know is that there are these speakers that claim to be

01:15:41

Christians that are then, they're in a church, they're giving spiritual instruction and they're not coming in as an outside guest.

01:15:49

Like he's not saying like, we're having an atheist today to debate. Like they're coming in as brothers and like, that's how they're treated.

01:15:55

I know that. So I don't know if you had anything. I just, I had to stop it there.

01:16:01

Oh, I think you're, you're hitting the nail on the head by pointing out like,

01:16:08

Hey, this is a con this complicated stuff. Everything's always presented as complicated. And then, and then we need to figure out some way to have unity on these complicated issues.

01:16:20

When in all reality, I go, okay, look, if there's, you know, the, the different stripes of eschatology, as I've heard, you put it in certain things like,

01:16:30

Oh, of course I can have unity and stuff like that. But when we're talking about essential things about who we are in Christ and who we're designed to be in Christ and how the

01:16:41

Bible talks about engaging war with our flesh. This, this is something that we, we should not be as pastors aiming to, to bring in something that, that shows that this is complicated and hard, and we need to figure out some, some sympathetic way to allow people to have these attractions of their flesh and, and, and be okay with it.

01:17:08

Or like these are all valid positions. That they're all equally valid. It's so to your point, one of the other things

01:17:15

I, I, in my engagement with Greg Coles over Facebook messenger, I asked,

01:17:21

I never got a response back, but it had to do with Preston Sprinkles actually calling those on side

01:17:27

A brothers in Christ. He calls in his, his video series on sexuality and the

01:17:36

Bible in session 13. He's talks about the whole thing is how we relate to those who disagree.

01:17:43

And Preston calls both Justin Lee and Matthew Vines who affirm, they affirm homosexual marriage, gay marriage as being fine for Christians to do, which obviously we know scripture doesn't teach that.

01:17:57

And Preston is saying he believes scripture doesn't teach that, but he refers to them as brothers, even in that video.

01:18:05

And I thought, well, that's odd. So I asked Greg Coles, do you think it's appropriate that we call

01:18:12

Justin Lee and Matthew Vines brothers, even though they presently and actively and currently endorse a monogamous same -sex marriage?

01:18:21

Would you agree with Preston Sprinkles that Justin Lee and Matthew Vines should be called brothers in Christ? And I actually never got a response back.

01:18:28

Yeah. And, and so that's kind of, that's where it ends up heading. It heads to like, to that type of stuff.

01:18:35

Yeah. I mean, he's an example he picks here. Like, I mean, I have my opinions on that conflict and you know, and it's funny, he, he's like, oh, no one would be with Hamas, which

01:18:44

I would wonder if he was here. I'd want to ask him like, why, like, why aren't all ideas like, shouldn't we have a zesty debate?

01:18:51

Why not have someone who's pro Hamas, you know, if you're, but like, that's that whole issue is not in the same category as fundamentally, are there other genders outside of the, right.

01:19:04

You know, email, like, it's just, it's like, you could have your opinions and still be a Christian on these things and, and be,

01:19:12

I guess, within orthodoxy, even though you might be wrong in my opinion, but like, but, but this is, yeah,

01:19:18

I don't know. He's paralleling something too. And I think that adds to the confusion of like, this is controversial and so is this.

01:19:24

Yeah. But they're different types of controversies. Anyway. Yeah. They're in talk about it. We've got a session on politics.

01:19:33

And again, right there, people are like, oh, what do you got to promote? Well, we have three Christian approaches to politics. All of them are solid on the gospel.

01:19:40

All of them are Bible -believing evangelicals, but one's kind of slightly more left -leaning, one's slightly more right -leaning, not, not to the, not to the extremes.

01:19:48

In fact, they're all pro -life, even the, even the left -leaning ones pro -life. And then we have somebody who's kind of more of a,

01:19:55

I think all parties are garbage, but they're going to give their talks, give their 15 minute presentation, but then we're going to see them engage in an hour long conversation with each other and the audience can ask questions.

01:20:06

So here's the key to the conference is I want people to come in uncomfortable.

01:20:11

Like you have to come in and you have to think through the different perspectives. You cannot just sit there and passively absorb a bunch of talks that you already agree with.

01:20:20

There's conferences that do that. There's a place for that. I, I've gone to those, you know, where you go and you get encouraged by people you already know are like, you know, line up with you on everything, you know, this conference is, is, is not like that.

01:20:33

It's almost like a, has like almost like a TED talk kind of element to it, where you're going to hear different perspectives and you're, you're going to be forced to say, okay, which aspect do

01:20:40

I think is right and wrong and why? And you're going to be forced to ask yourself those, those questions. Attraction and lust are not the same thing.

01:20:47

And I think that should be obvious. And when I was preaching, I used the example of my all -time biggest

01:20:52

Hollywood crush, which is Audrey Hepburn. I just, I'm just. Yeah, Pastor Meg, like, like just,

01:20:58

I'm just like saying for everyone out there, including you, like, like, listen to this example. This is like, this clip is so weird to me, but anyway let's play it.

01:21:07

And then I want to get your opinion on it. Yeah, she's, she's, I'm a big movie guy. She's so cute to me.

01:21:12

Like, and I'm so attracted to her. In no meaningful way have I ever, that I can think of, lusted or felt guilty about my thoughts.

01:21:20

Like she's beautiful. She's just beautiful. I'm attracted to her. And, and I also.

01:21:25

In a way that's different than you saying Brad Pitt's a handsome guy. Exactly. Very different. It's still different.

01:21:31

Even though one, either, no, you're not lusting after either one. Either one. The term attraction is, yeah.

01:21:36

Yeah. And that's because I am attracted to women. And that fact is not lust, is not lust either.

01:21:42

It's just a fact that I'm attracted to women. So it's like, I think we, it's very important that we make this distinction because I think people get these distinctions confused in their, in their minds.

01:21:52

So it's like, they hear you come out and say, look, I, I, I hold to a traditional biblical ethic.

01:21:58

I believe marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. And, and that is the only place where sexuality is, is supposed to be.

01:22:05

And then in their minds they say, yeah, but what about your thoughts and your lustful life and stuff? And so I think, you know, yes, lust is wrong also.

01:22:13

I didn't mean to go on that. No, no. Thoughts and feelings and desires, they, they can be sinful for sure. But then we also have temptations that are in and of themselves sin until we act on that.

01:22:23

Tucker and I are, are married. We're both heterosexual. We're both attracted to the opposite sex. That means we're, like you, attracted to 4 billion people on the planet.

01:22:30

But it's like, well, yeah, but it doesn't mean like I'm desiring to have sex with either. It's just like a general category.

01:22:37

So gay people, I'll just say people who are gay or same sex attracted, it's the same thing.

01:22:43

And I'm fine saying maybe the difference would be opposite sex attraction in the sense we're talking about it.

01:22:49

You know, that, that's a natural part of our, you know, that's like Genesis one and two, right? Whereas same sex attraction might be part of the fall.

01:22:56

I'm totally fine with that. I think that's probably the best theological explanation, but not everything that's part of fallen nature is itself as an, is, is like a morally culpable sin to repent from.

01:23:06

I mean, all disabilities are probably part of the fall. I've thought of that exact same connection. Same sex.

01:23:11

Okay. Okay. All right. That's a poor example. That's a mess. Yeah.

01:23:17

So it was such a poor, there's a lot to kind of unpack there, but I think one, that's a poor example to start talking about some of the suffering, ongoing ramifications of the fall with disease, thorns, thistles, things like that.

01:23:31

If someone's born with a deformity, of course, that is not a morally culpable sin.

01:23:39

Jesus makes that clear for sure. And, and and the only reason those exist is because sin has entered the world.

01:23:49

There's people that are born blind, people born with deformities, and that doesn't mean that they're morally culpable for, you know, violating

01:23:58

God's moral order that they're actively sinning from their heart. Jesus says, it's not the stuff that comes from the outside that defiles.

01:24:06

It's what comes from within evil thoughts. So once we get into spots where we're dealing with thoughts, this is different.

01:24:13

Attractions, desires, those things are evil and they defile us.

01:24:18

And so I, it's a convoluted mess because now you're hearing, I think the argument has gotten progressively more deceptive down the road.

01:24:29

So I can hear Preston say, I think that same -sex attraction is probably a result of the fall.

01:24:37

I think that's the best explanation. So he says, I think it is the explanation for sure.

01:24:42

It's not probably, it is the explanation and those attractions and desires are there as a direct result of the fall.

01:24:50

But you start looking at the circles that Preston hangs out with and you pick up, I mean, he's still, because he works right side by side with Greg Coles, they're still promoting single gay

01:25:00

Christian. And Greg Coles is speculating. They want to speculate. Is this part of a good part of who we are?

01:25:07

There's a holy way to conduct these things and to live this out. But to start using an example of a normal attraction the way

01:25:18

God designed it, men attracted to women, women attracted to men, and then to somehow say, well, that same type of attraction, as long as you're not lusting or desiring to be with them sexually, if that's happening towards the same sex, that it's equally not sin.

01:25:40

I would say that's wrong. It's categorically wrong. It's missing the original design that God placed into creation.

01:25:50

And you would never go, I mean, to your point again, just throw another example in there, put some other desire in there.

01:25:59

You would not say for a minor attracted, like I'm a minor attracted person. I'm attracted to little kids.

01:26:06

I'm not lusting after them, but I am attracted to them in this unique way. And that's going to help me do like kids' ministry.

01:26:12

That's crazy. You would never do that with dogs. Like I'm attracted to dogs. Now we're going even further away from created order.

01:26:22

You wouldn't say that this is a normal, okay desire to have.

01:26:27

That's a corrupted desire from the flesh. And when

01:26:32

Preston starts talking about sinful desires, evil desires, we can have desires that are sinful.

01:26:40

And I would just say, well, sin just means to miss the mark.

01:26:47

And in Romans chapter three, it says, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So I would say, what is sin?

01:26:54

Sin is anything that fails to glorify God. So if I have thoughts that fail to glorify

01:27:01

Him, that fail to honor the way that He's designed and operated for us to move in, then that thought that I have is a sin.

01:27:12

This misses the mark of glorifying God in my desires.

01:27:19

And so, because of that, that's something that I should repent of. That's something that I should turn away from and go,

01:27:25

God, why has that even helped me to turn? And maybe that's something someone has struggled with on an ongoing basis.

01:27:32

You just keep doing it all the time, keep bringing it to the Lord. And I do believe in progressive sanctification and that there's hope and there could be real change.

01:27:41

I mean, for someone who had come out of bondage to like lust and pornography and these other things as an unbeliever,

01:27:51

God has transformed my thinking. I don't have those thoughts, those desires to the same intensity that I did.

01:28:01

Do I still battle with them? Sure. I battle with those things, but God has given me victory in these areas and I will continue to keep pushing forward in progressive sanctification.

01:28:12

And the same is true for someone that would have same -sex desires as well. You would just continue.

01:28:18

I would encourage, like continue to keep bringing it to the Lord. God's grace is sufficient and He can help you. And guess what?

01:28:24

Your same -sex desires, they shouldn't be the primary thing that defines you.

01:28:30

And I know that they, Side B says that, but it's treated differently. It's still treated as something that defines who that person is.

01:28:40

I don't know if I answered all, kind of all. No, that was good because, yeah, I mean, I think you're getting at the main issue with that, which is like, so I don't know if you noticed, like they did some equivocation.

01:28:54

So you heard the pastor, I don't know his name, talking about Audrey Hepburn and his feelings of Audrey, about Audrey Hepburn.

01:29:02

And really like he clumsily, I think, I think the whole thing was clumsy. They're not using precise words, but he's talking about noticing her beauty.

01:29:11

That's what I got from that. Like he's, he's noticing she's someone that he considers attractive in, in, in a sense that she has a beautiful face and a smile.

01:29:19

And we even talk about that. Like we'll say attractive personalities. And we don't necessarily mean that we're lusting after that person in a sexual way.

01:29:28

We just, they're the kind of person you like being around. Right. So, so he's talking about that.

01:29:34

And then Preston Sprinkle says he uses the same word attraction to say, well,

01:29:40

I'm attracted to half the population of earth, which I'm thinking like, that's you're using attraction in a totally different way.

01:29:48

Then that's, that's not the same thing. You're talking about suitability now that God has made design men for women, right?

01:29:54

Like, and well, he's not talking about, I guess he's, he's saying that because he said her sexual, you know, half the women of the world or whatever.

01:30:00

And then they want to like, get those two things away from lust. So, so like Preston Sprinkle, like downplays, even like the example, the pastor gives, cause he's like, all

01:30:09

I can be attracted without sinning. And then Preston Sprinkle is like, well, attraction, like, it's like, you don't even have to meet the person.

01:30:16

Apparently you could be attracted to them. You know, they're just some person of the opposite gender and they want to stick like SSA in that, in those categories somewhere, like same sex attraction is hiding within liking

01:30:28

Audrey Hepburn or it's how you're noticing it's beautiful or it's hiding within like this suitability feature that God's put into us that.

01:30:38

And, and so like, it's like anything to make sure that it's not in the category of sin, which is where scripture puts it.

01:30:44

I think that's what you're saying. It's the word games and the lack of precision.

01:30:50

I, I don't, I don't want to be cynical, you know, say like, that's like part of their deception that's been thought out before they did the discussion, but it's like, it does seem to me like that lack of precision is, it makes it sound more complex than it actually is.

01:31:06

Scripture makes this, it's a simple issue in the Bible, right? So I think at the end of the day, when it comes to the sufficiency of scripture being under attack is, this is, it's me making assumptions.

01:31:19

So maybe I'm, I'm skewing their motives, but the, the personhood of, of, of being gay, being trans, like those are valid categories in their mind based on experience and what we're starting to know by social as, you know, social sciences and things like this, that this, it should be a real category of, of personhood.

01:31:47

You just can't act on these things in action, but this kind of defines who you are.

01:31:56

So this should be an accepted category of personhood. The church needs to bring in.

01:32:01

And if the church is willing to do this now, now the world's going to see just how loving and charitable and kind that we are in a lot of ways.

01:32:12

I think it's, it's that misguided notion that is driving it.

01:32:17

It's like, we, we have to, we have to continue to allow this, this, this this category of personhood to be acceptable.

01:32:26

And, and, and church, if you could just embrace it, to me, it's like the conservative church sees side

01:32:33

A as too big of a step. You know, it's like that, no, that's off. We don't buy that.

01:32:38

Side B comes along and they, it's like, it's off, but let us just give you another step.

01:32:44

You'll take this one and it's just the next step on over. Oh, that's a good analogy. Yeah. Yeah.

01:32:49

Cause, cause you know, the more I think about it, like if you put, cause what they're really saying without saying it directly is that like, if you like, if you think

01:32:58

Audrey Hepburn is pretty, like, and great. And Preston Sprinkle said, well that, and you notice her in ways you wouldn't notice guys, right?

01:33:04

Like, so you're there to flip that the art, cause the argument they're making is that a guy can do that with other guys.

01:33:11

Like you, you could be a guy who notices other guys and is attracted in a way that you wouldn't be though to women.

01:33:18

And that's like perfectly fine. Cause it's not technically lust or you can be wired in such a way from the fall, apparently that you are attracted in a suitable sense to like half the population, but they're also your, your gender.

01:33:35

Right. And, and those two things would also be off limits because in the first case, when you, you can,

01:33:43

I mean, I'm not saying you can't notice that another guy's a good looking guy or someone that, you know, you'd like to hang out.

01:33:49

Scripture does it like God talks about Saul. Well, he was, he was handsome and he was head and shoulders, you know, above all the rest.

01:33:57

It talks about that with females too. It's like, yeah, there's, there's objective beauty. Someone can objectively be a handsome guy or we all notice that stuff.

01:34:07

But, but, but as soon as you start saying like, and it's, it's like part of my identity that I only notice guys and I'm only attracted to guys as a man and not females.

01:34:19

And that's like part of my homosexual inclination or same sex attraction or whatever. And it's not sin because it's not lust.

01:34:27

You're still, you're still admitting that there's a, like, you're out of step with God's design for you at a fundamental level.

01:34:34

Right. And, and if you start saying I'm suitable, like I have this attraction to like all men, you know, in this general sense, like you're, it's just, it's like, just like a hide and go seek kind of game.

01:34:48

Like you're, you're just taking that and you're trying to move it to different places where it's like, okay, they attacked it when we said it was this.

01:34:54

Now let's put it over here deeper. And maybe they won't find it if we put it over. It is, it is. It's like a theological clamshell game where we can just move it around.

01:35:05

Whack them all. Yeah. And then now, now do you see, and do you see where we, we're, we believe an orthodox view of sexuality and marriage.

01:35:16

Do you see that? And at the end of the day, you just have to go, no, I don't think anyone just, if you were to just pick up your

01:35:23

Bible and just read it, if you were to just pick up your Bible and just read Genesis, there's no way you would walk away going, yeah,

01:35:32

I think before the fall there, there was a, there's this sort of sexuality or these, you could be this holy single eunuch, like this category of sexuality that they want you to buy into.

01:35:46

There's no way you would do that. Could you imagine if Adam was in the garden and he's just like, you know, Eve's the only other human.

01:35:52

And he's like, you know, bummer. I can only notice the beauty of other guys, you know, only attracted to guys.

01:35:58

Like, you know, it's just, it's nonsense. Right. So, um, anyway, uh, or, or yeah,

01:36:06

I, there's much more. It could be said, do we want to finish? We've been going, this is a long one. Um, yeah, let's just play a clip and we'll see if there's anything else.

01:36:13

I think we've said a lot, but. Traction as that, the cat, the way we described it is not a morally culpable sin that somebody needs to repent from.

01:36:22

Lust. Yes. Repent. Same sex sexual behavior. Yes. Repent. Those are absolute sins, but simply being tempted with the same sex is not a morally culpable sin.

01:36:31

Just me saying that, that she says I'm a heretic. But you are saying you have to repent of the actual lust from any sinful desire.

01:36:38

Yeah. Okay. Um, now when she describes same sex attraction, it just seems like she's describing lust.

01:36:45

And that's where I just want, I think it's just almost like a terminological distinction. If I was saying this is sin and you don't need to repent from that, then yeah, that, that would be heresy.

01:36:54

Um, and then the other one is that no Christian should ever use the term gay as a description of their experience.

01:37:01

And that's where I'm going to say language can mean different things to different people. I don't think it's every time somebody uses the term gay, it means kind of the same kind of,

01:37:10

I am gay and Jesus is down here kind of, kind of illustrate really quickly. I had a friend who recently just referenced a family member who he said, well,

01:37:18

I have a family member who's gay and that family member is a Christian. That would be heresy. That family member is a

01:37:24

Christian who is practicing celibacy and is right. Trying to be obedient to God's word and believes that it's wrong to get like, like, so he just used that description of the family.

01:37:34

It was just, it was a shorthand to explain something that in our culture makes perfect sense. And what he meant was that that family member, uh, believes, struggles with same sex attraction.

01:37:45

That's what it meant. So I have no ill will against Rosaria. Um, appreciated her. She, her early, her first book where she documents her conversion is incredible.

01:37:54

She's done great work. She's, you know, very smart. Um, but yeah, she has on several occasions, um, tried to point out things in my writing and her interpretation of what

01:38:07

I'm saying is, I mean, if I'm honest, it's, it's, it's one of the more bizarre interpretations

01:38:14

I've seen. So more recently she quoted from page 45 of my book, does the Bible support same sex marriage in which

01:38:21

I give 21 reasons why the Bible does not support same sex marriage. Yeah.

01:38:27

It's like, it's a simple book really. It's like, no, by definition it's a defense of the traditional view of marriage.

01:38:34

And in the context where I'm giving five arguments for traditional marriage, it's in that context where she takes a little paragraph that I wrote and comes to the conclusion that I don't think gay people need to repent from sin.

01:38:51

And I, and my whole point, yeah, it was just, I'm like, how did the, the, the literal subtitle of that section is the

01:38:58

Bible consistently condemned same sex, sexual relationships. And she got it from when

01:39:03

I was, I was looking at, you know, Romans one addresses same sex relationships. And I, I make a statement and she actually misquote, she leaves out half of a sentence.

01:39:12

The part of the sentence disagreed with her interpretation. And then she'd stopped short of the next line.

01:39:18

So she's just cherry picking stuff. And she came to the conclusion that Preston doesn't think gay people need to repent from sin.

01:39:24

My point was Romans in Romans one, you guys know Romans one, the point in Romans one is not just to condemn all the sins in Romans one.

01:39:33

It's to show that we all need Jesus. Cause like in Romans one, you have the Jew who's sitting there saying, yeah,

01:39:39

Paul, you go get him, go get him, go get him. And what is he doing to one? Who are you to judge? You know? So the whole point is to say, we all need to repent from sin.

01:39:48

By me saying that she took that to mean that I don't think gay people need to repent from sin in a book showing that all sex outside of a male, female marriage or sin that needs to be prevented

01:39:57

Okay. So I perhaps should not have included that cause I I'm not familiar with what

01:40:03

Rosario said. I Rosario Butterfield is who he's referring to there. Go ahead. No. So me, me too.

01:40:09

I will say listening to I I've, I've appreciated

01:40:14

Rosario Butterfield, you know, coming to a place where she has said,

01:40:20

Hey, I, I want to publicly repent of using categories of, of, of personhood that are sinful, like being okay to say you can be a gay and a

01:40:36

Christian certain other areas. Like I have to reflect, it's been a while since I read this like public statement that she put out.

01:40:43

And since then her, and I watched this interview, it was her Christopher Yuan and another

01:40:50

Beckett Cook Beckett Cook. Yeah. Great is a great, great interview about, can you be gay and Christian?

01:40:57

And they're going out of their, out of their way. All of these guys are people who would go, we struggled with same sex attraction and, and Beckett Cook and Christopher Yuan would say, we still battle with this daily, but God is giving us a victory and we are growing in sanctification.

01:41:15

And funny enough, all three of them are people. I don't know about Beckett Cook as much. I knew a little about them, but like all three are people that I in, in perhaps my clumsy way, but I went after, cause

01:41:25

I knew something was wrong years ago, right? Like they were starting to embrace some of this stuff. And they, from my understanding,

01:41:31

I know Rosario has for sure. Yeah. And she she's been, she's a wonderful encouragement to me.

01:41:36

Just she's really an amazing person just from the limited interaction I've had. But but, but all three of them have, have said, you know what?

01:41:45

We were going in a wrong direction. We repented that. And this is, so the thing is though,

01:41:51

I don't buy what he's saying, I guess. And I don't have to even hear what Rosario said necessarily, just cause

01:41:56

I do know her well enough to know she wouldn't say to someone, cause this is what, this is what he wants you to believe that she wouldn't say, well, you must not want everyone to repent because you're, or, or, sorry.

01:42:09

You must think that gay people, that's what he said. You must think that homosexuals aren't in sin because you believe everyone should repent, but that's basically what he wants you to, to think that she believes, right?

01:42:22

Like that makes, like, I know that she wouldn't say that that's like what Christian would like, you know?

01:42:29

And I would, I would spend, I would have to spend, I've not read Preston's book and I haven't listened to Rosario's book.

01:42:35

But I, what I do think very clearly is Rosario and Preston use it.

01:42:42

It's, I've heard you say it, apologists say it all the time. It happens when the social justice movements, when in the church, they're promoting social justice is they use, they use the same vocabulary, but, but a different dictionary.

01:42:56

That's exactly what is happening. So Rosario is going to look at these desires, this attraction, and she's going to say, that is sin.

01:43:07

That's a lot. That is a lust of the flesh and attraction of the flesh. And those things need to be mortified and crucified.

01:43:13

Now, I just know that based on some of the other like interviews and things that I've watched her do with Elisa Childers and, and stuff like that.

01:43:23

And it's very clear where she stands. So Preston does not believe that he says you could go to the center for faith, sexuality, and gender.

01:43:32

And on their statement on marriage, it will say, we, we do not believe that being same sex attracted.

01:43:40

And then in parentheses, it says, or being gay is a morally culpable sin.

01:43:45

I was like, you don't think that being like the verb of being is there, that being gay is a morally culpable sin.

01:43:53

It is, that is a sin that we're culpable for. And we'll give an account for, and, and, and praise the

01:44:01

Lord. He sent his son to die. So those things no longer have to define who

01:44:06

I am. And, and I consider myself dead. I consider my flesh, those desires, they're dead.

01:44:13

They died with Christ. And I've been risen to a new way of life so that those things don't define me.

01:44:20

That's where I believe that Rosaria, Christopher Yuan, they're, they're going to come at it. And so Preston Sprinkles is going to say, see, they're, they say that I don't think you need to repent well, or that you don't need to turn from sin.

01:44:33

It's that they're defining like where the sin is actually at, at two different spots.

01:44:38

And, and I would say what has happened is the goalpost of, of where the

01:44:44

Bible says our flesh is and where the real spiritual battle begins and taking every thought captive has been moved further down the road.

01:44:53

And so now it's down the road. And so if you're experiencing just attractions, don't worry about doing spiritual battle there. That's fine.

01:44:59

You're fine. That, that part of that, a little bit of your flesh can hang on there. That's okay. But if it, if it starts acting up here, now you need to do something about it.

01:45:07

And I go, no, all of it, all of it, the whole recipe for your flesh, every attraction, desire, everything is to be crucified.

01:45:17

It's considered dead. And, and that's an, you and I, every Christian, we all deal with it every day.

01:45:27

Yeah, no good word. And I think with Preston to put a cap on it. And again, I haven't,

01:45:32

I haven't actually read any of his books. I probably should. You have, you've read just the one or yeah,

01:45:38

I've read embodied. I read most of no longer strangers and read single gay

01:45:46

Christian. That's not Preston. That's Greg Coles, but they're on the same page. The MO is the same in every, in everything, his video series

01:45:53

I watched, everything is complicated. And, and, and so do you see where we're orthodox is really complicated.

01:46:00

And so we can't come to sound conclusions. Gotcha. No, that's, that's good to sort of demystify,

01:46:07

I guess his tactic. I think he confuses the issues. It seems like, and, and then just kind of like they call it a

01:46:15

Motten Bailey, I guess, but like he, Oh, run back to that kind of fortress of like, Hey, look at these orthodox beliefs, but that sort of distracts you from like the issue that you're, you know,

01:46:27

Hey, you could be totally for traditional marriage, you know, and also think that same sex attraction is perfectly permissible within the

01:46:35

Christian life. Like those, you know, that, I think those things are inconsistent, but like, you know, it doesn't to run back to some orthodox belief you have just shifts the conversation.

01:46:47

It's, it's a distraction. So, um, I'll just give you the final word since this is probably one of the longer podcasts

01:46:54

I've done in a while. Uh, but I'm not going to say anything else. Uh, any word you'd have for people maybe still in Calvary or whatever.

01:47:02

I honestly, I think there's a ton of great faithful, uh, brothers in Christ that are faithfully shepherding the flock well within Calvary.

01:47:11

And I would say, keep up, keep up the good fight, keep doing what you're doing. Just be aware that on some level, this stuff is obviously

01:47:19

I, it was not, but a couple of weeks before we're doing this podcast, I'm finding out Preston Sprinkle actually goes to that Calvary in Idaho.

01:47:29

That's where he goes to church. I said, Oh man, I didn't even know that. Okay. I had no idea that that's, that's where he, he attends church.

01:47:36

And so then these conferences are being put on there. That obviously doesn't mean that every Calvary chapel is doing this, but it's there just like in the

01:47:43

Southern Baptist, uh, convention stuff is there and there's good guys doing the good fight and hopefully, uh, they can turn, steer the ship in other direction.

01:47:54

I hope that that can happen in, in Calvary, uh, two. And, um, uh,

01:48:00

I really do think it's worthwhile that pastors are aware that this theology is out there and that it's being pushed by some pretty influential guys,

01:48:11

Francis Chan, Matt Chandler. So there's a whole new series that's coming out from the center of faith, sex, uh, sexuality, faith, and gender.

01:48:20

Um, I might have messed up. Oh, those words go in there, but Preston Sprinkles organization, uh, there's a new series geared for teens.

01:48:29

And I just think of the sway that Francis Chan has on, on a large part of the evangelical church.

01:48:37

They're going to see Francis Chan. They're going to see some of these other names and they're going to think, well, this is good. We should show this to the youth as a new way of engaging with, uh, people who are, are, are homosexuals and, and how we can help them with this struggle.

01:48:53

And at the end of the day, if the church buys into this, you're not bringing them the real help and change that can be found in Christ.

01:49:03

You leave them at a spot where actually it's like, well, you're just going to have to be single forever.

01:49:10

There's not any hope at all that God could ever change or transform your desires. And so, uh, just, you can be gay and be a

01:49:19

Christian, just suck it up and be celibate. But also, uh, you know, if, if you, if you're reading something from Greg Coles, it's like, ah, who are we even really to know?

01:49:28

You know, we, I mean, maybe you can, you can pray and, and faithfully come to conclusion.

01:49:34

You can enter into gay marriage and still follow, follow Jesus. Who are we to even really judge that stuff?

01:49:40

That's, that's the conclusions that are driven at the end of that book. And, and so it's going to lead people down a bad path.

01:49:46

And so I hope, I hope people just take heed, uh, to do what Paul said, which is just to shepherd the flock and don't fail to declare the whole council of God.

01:49:54

And the thing that Paul told the Ephesians elders and Acts chapter 20 was that, uh, he said, remember my way of life and what manner

01:50:01

I conducted myself and how he taught both Jews and Gentiles that they were to repent and place their faith in Jesus.

01:50:12

And I think that's important because what's happening is we're undermining where repentance needs to happen, where you repent and how you anchor your hope in Christ.

01:50:21

And so if we, if we fail to teach that, it's going to lead to detriment when it comes to discipleship and evangelism.

01:50:29

Well, thank you, pastor. Mike, you can go to redemptionhillnm .com. If you want to find out more and, or .org,

01:50:35

I'm sorry, redemptionhillnm .org. Uh, and, uh, I'm assuming your email address is there.

01:50:42

If people want to get in touch with you, uh, as well to ask questions or get advice, but Hey, I really appreciate it.