How to Talk to Mormon Missionaries: 2nd Edition, Pt 1 | Cultish

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Hey guys, if you listen to this podcast, you or someone, you know, has probably been a victim of spiritual abuse.

00:05

In addition to educating us all about these harmful groups, Coltish is proud to partner with be emboldened, a nonprofit dedicated to finding freedom from spiritual abuse.

00:14

The founder Naomi Wright has been a guest on our show more than once. She shared her own personal story with us, which is something we really appreciate about being emboldened.

00:21

They have the education and the training, but they also just get it on a personal level.

00:26

It makes the special opportunity they have for Coltish listener today, that much better. Be emboldened provides excellent resources and practical help from trained professionals to walk alongside survivors, their loved ones, and church leaders and professionals seeking to serve this very real and growing need more effectively.

00:42

They know that the cost of professional mentoring, expert consulting, and top -notch digital courses can be tough, though they're excited to announce a new way for everyone to access help hope and healing with be emboldened brand new plus membership.

00:54

You'll gain access to the exclusive content, expert mentoring, thought provoking blogs, curated content, discounts, and more check out their new

01:02

B plus membership at be emboldened .com forward slash membership and use the code Coltish 50 at checkout for 50 % off your first month subscription.

01:10

That's Coltish 50 for 50 % off here's to living out freedom. Welcome back to Coltish everybody, where we enter into the kingdom of the

01:22

Colts. As you noticed, Jeremiah Roberts is not here today, wherever he is.

01:28

I don't know. You try to figure out yourself. You let us know where you think he is. Anyways, you'll might see a face that you recognize that's pastor

01:37

Wade on the other side, pastor of apology at church, Utah. He's been featured in many of our Coltish episodes.

01:42

And if you go all the way back to the beginning of Coltish, really, you can find an episode where we interviewed

01:48

Sandra Tanner that was me and a brother Wade. That's how you might know him, but now you can call him elder

01:54

Wade because he is a pastor. Yep. How you doing to see you guys? I'm glad to be back. Good, good.

02:00

And now we have over here as well. Pastor Ross Anderson. Tell everyone about yourself. Okay. Well, um,

02:07

I'll give you the short version. Really. I grew up as an L Latter -day Saint, a group in a Mormon family. Um, one of 10 kids,

02:14

I always joke about how my parents were doing their best to depopulate the preexistence. And so 10 of us and, um, that, uh, born in Salt Lake city, but grew up mostly around the

02:24

West, but mostly in Southern California and Orange County, California. So my S my story is, um,

02:31

I was planning to go on my mission. My older brothers had gone on their missions for the LDS church and they had gone places that were challenging.

02:39

They weren't like you wouldn't have a vacation there. And so that began to count the cost. And so I started asking the question as a senior in high school, um, do

02:48

I really own this thing enough to, to make a sacrifice like that? And, um, so that got things circulating in my head, you know, and then, then

02:58

I met a girl, um, who introduced me to biblical Christianity, at least at some level.

03:04

She knew, she knew that Mormonism wasn't. Correct. She was not very well trained as a

03:10

Christian. She, her family situation was not great or whatever, but, but she did know Jesus. And, um, so I had her seeing the

03:17

Mormon missionaries and she had me reading, you know, quote, anti -Mormon literature. So this is back in the seventies.

03:24

And so there was no internet or these resources were a little bit hard to come by. Uh, so, but she introduced me to the, uh, to the massive tome that, that Gerald and Sandra Tanner put out, um, called

03:35

Mormonism shadow or reality. And it blew me away. Like, this was like, Oh, Oh my gosh.

03:41

Uh, I was so unaware of all the things that were, um, revealed about Mormon history and primarily about history and archeology and so forth.

03:50

So I came to a point after about a year of, of grappling with the questions and the, and the information, she seemed to have answers to what the missionaries were saying.

04:00

I didn't have any answers to what I was reading. So I made an intellectual deconversion.

04:06

They said, I knew that I sat down with my dad. I said, dad, I don't think I can participate in the church anymore.

04:12

Um, this doesn't add up. So I began to attend church with this girl.

04:20

Um, it was, uh, it was a Lutheran church. It was very, very different from Mormonism in terms of his style.

04:28

And honestly, I have no idea whether the gospel was preached there or not. Either it wasn't being preached or I just simply did not have the ears to hear.

04:36

And so, and, and it was a cultural, uh, shock really to go in robes and, you know, uh, candles and stuff.

04:44

It's like that you don't see in sacrament meeting. And I spent all my time trying to figure out when I'm supposed to stand up and when

04:49

I was supposed to sit down and kneel and all the rest. So, so, you know, um, it was a very foreign experience.

04:54

Didn't really go that often, but it introduced me to some, some ideas of some possibilities and, and for the next year, uh, basically two, two and a half years, um,

05:05

God, uh, really didn't have a faith conversion. Didn't really adopt anything after leaving

05:11

Mormonism, but God used that time, that time period to deconstruct my

05:17

Mormon veneer of superficial external righteousness, a deacon, you know, you, you learn to see yourself in this, in this certain paradigm, this certain light.

05:27

And all of it was like, oh yeah, you know, I'm, I'm worthy. I'm feeling that doing all this stuff and changing

05:33

God began to change the whole framework of what, about how I would approach him by, by just revealing.

05:40

I mean, a lot of things in life were good. I was succeeding in school and stuff like that, but there was still an emptiness. Yeah, there was a, there was something missing.

05:47

I didn't know what it was. And so, um, a friend that I was working with at the school that I was attending,

05:56

I talked like a Christian, I think I had vocabulary and I may be a certain level of self -awareness about that, but, but it wasn't any, any depth to it.

06:05

And she saw through that. So she thought, she thought, she said, why don't you come with me to my church sometime?

06:12

And it was a, it was a Bible teaching church, a gospel and evangelical church. Um, and I went with her to a

06:20

Sunday night service. We sat, I sat way up in the balcony as far as I, away as I could get, but it wasn't far enough because he's talking about the parable of the four soils where Jesus says that sower sows the seed and the point of the parable came true, came kind of fruition in the fourth soil.

06:38

He says, this is what happens when the seed lands in receptive soil and it produces fruit 30, 60, hundred fold.

06:46

And he's describing that fruit. And I, and the Holy spirit just said, like in my heart of hearts, deep, deep within farther, farther within than you could make conscious thoughts in your head said that, you know, your life now, there's no fruit.

07:00

This is life I'm offering you. And, and I, and I surrendered to Jesus that night.

07:06

There was no altar call or anything like that. It wasn't an evangelistic sermon, but it was for me because I surrendered that night.

07:13

I said, God, I need you to come do that in me. And that was the turning point in my life began to rapidly change.

07:18

At that point, it began to get discipled by that church. Went back to it. This girl, my coworker, she said,

07:26

Oh, let's do a Bible study together. We should, you know, we're on campus. We should find a spot on campus and we'll do a

07:32

Bible study together. I said, Oh, that'd be great. You know? And then, then she says one day, she says, Oh, by the way,

07:38

I don't believe that women should teach men. And she said, so guess what?

07:43

You're the leader. What in the world? Okay. All right.

07:49

So it was just you two. It was just the two of us. Yeah. A couple other people joined later on and who saw us out on the campus, you know, sitting there and what are you guys doing?

07:57

You know, we're doing this Bible study. So it talked about sink or swim. It just threw me in and it forced me to, to have to consider, you know, what would, what would you study?

08:06

What would you say? What would you source? You know? And I, uh, I was so new and so young at it all that, um,

08:13

I have to say, unfortunately that Christian radio was a big source for that. And I'm going like,

08:18

Oh, this is a Christian radio to fit her. I don't know what to say on Thursday at noon, you know, but it was a, God really used that in my life and in that church.

08:26

And then, um, uh, I, I transferred to a different school, to a university, uh, a few miles away.

08:33

And when I made that move, I got involved in campus ministry and was discipled to some serious discipleship and opportunity to grow and learn and all the rest.

08:41

Um, really since God leading into vocational ministry at the end, but I thought it would be global missions.

08:48

And so I thought I went, I want to find a seminary where I can get trained for that and trained in cross -cultural ministry and so forth.

08:55

So I went off to graduate school, graduate seminary, and, um, it, to study missions and, and cross -cultural ministry.

09:04

And, uh, I was married by then. And, um, we had a year to go.

09:11

We go, we better figure out what God's going to do. You know, we got nine months to figure this out. You know, what are we going to do?

09:17

And so we really started earnestly praying and fasting for God's direction during that final year.

09:24

And, um, boom, it's like, um, God spoke to us circumstantially really by opening up the door, all kinds of opportunities.

09:31

We've been there two years and, and, uh, but suddenly boom, we're in this prayer posture, seeking

09:37

God's direction. And he starts to line us up with all kinds of people who said, oh,

09:43

I heard used to be Mormon. Oh, my sister's dating a Mormon. What do I tell you? And all these opportunities came up.

09:48

And, and, um, one of the, one of the key things was, we'd, like I said, we've been there two years in, um, after that time, the home teacher showed up at our door, a guy from Utah.

09:59

Now we had been through the court to get, um, my name removed from the LDS church. You had to go through a formal proceeding at that time and so forth.

10:07

And I said, well, why are you here? You know, and, and he found out, he looked it up and found out that there had been a technicality and my excommunication had never happened.

10:19

And so I was still on the rolls and, um, and providentially, you know,

10:24

God used that to bring this guy. We started to tend, you know, meet the members of the ward, go to some of their activities and get to know them.

10:30

And as a way of, you know, learning more and sharing Christ and so forth. So God used that to really draw us back from, um, going overseas somewhere to, to come to Utah and with that missional missionary training, we're able to come to Utah and see it as a cross -cultural mission field and really address it from that perspective.

10:53

So was, um, the, the woman that you were in the Bible study with, is that your now wife? No. Oh, okay.

10:58

So who's the we that you're speaking of? Uh, we is, so I was married at the time. Okay. Yeah. So I, uh,

11:04

I met her, um, when I transferred to the university of California and I met her as a student there, um, in that we met her in the, well, the church that the student, a lot of students went to this one church and we met there and, um, she was still finishing when

11:20

I had finished school. So, uh, we got married that one year and she had one more year to finish. And then we went to, uh, she came with me.

11:27

She did not enroll in seminary. She, she paid the bills. Okay. Um, and, uh, actually she passed away about, uh, eight years ago.

11:35

Oh, wow. Oh, 10 years ago now. And I've remarried since. Okay. Yeah. And I'm sorry for your loss, brother.

11:41

Yeah. Thanks, man. Yeah. So that's why that's one of the reasons why you're here is that you have a heart for the

11:46

LDS people. You're a pastor in Utah. What church do you pastor? Yeah. I'm at Alpine Alpine church.

11:51

It's called, it's up in Weber County or Weber Davis County, Northern Utah. It's a multi -site church.

11:57

We have locations from Logan all the way down to Layton, Utah. Yeah. And so you are one of the authors of this book as well.

12:04

If you want, you can hold it up and show the camera. It's a Corey Miller, Ross Anderson, pastor Ross right here. It's called responding to the

12:10

Mormon missionary message, confident conversations with Mormon missionaries and other Latter -day

12:15

Saints. So you wrote a book, praise God for that. Let me ask you a question real quick with regards to the book.

12:21

Why, why does it say Mormon on there instead of Latter -day Saint? Well, I addressed that in the introduction.

12:27

It was a introduction where we kind of talk about the book, the nature of the book, why we did. Um, because this is,

12:34

I understand, you know, how Latter -day Saints, and I use the word Latter -day Saint more often than I used to, um, because I understand, you know, the changes that they've made and some people in the

12:45

LDS culture do feel like that's appropriate. This is disrespectful to call the

12:51

Mormons, but I, but I have a historical view. I've been here 40 years in Utah. And I remember under president

12:57

Gordon B Hinckley, it was let's run Mormon up the flagpole. And it's like he did the film meet the

13:03

Mormons and this whole campaign about I'm a Mormon too, and so forth. And so honestly, if you look at, um, just trying to be objective, if you look at how major media outlets have historically, uh, talked about the

13:20

Mormon movement, the Mormon church, the word Mormon is commonly established. It's not pejorative.

13:27

It's a simple, uh, maybe it was in 1835 or something like that, but it's a simple way of talking about something.

13:35

So that also the idea is that there's a whole Mormon culture.

13:41

There's a whole movement, a Mormon movement that doesn't encompass just the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

13:47

Saints. It's bigger than that. So Mormon history is bigger than the history of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

13:53

Saints. Oh, wow. So it encompasses, um, other L other Mormon offshoot groups.

13:58

It encompasses all kinds of things that were practiced by, by Mormon settlers in, in the

14:05

West and so forth that are not just about that particular institution. Wow.

14:11

So the word Mormon or Mormonism encompasses the whole historical aspect of this movement created by Joseph Smith is what you're saying.

14:19

Not just this modern Latter -day Saint or how they're trying to redefine things and change things, but everything in general, that's the ism behind it.

14:26

And that's what people recognize. That's why you use it. That makes sense. And even currently, not just historically, but that's accurate.

14:32

But even currently there's a culture that's defined by the institution or it's, or it's, uh, inculcated by the institution, but it's, it, the culture is not equal to the institution.

14:43

And so you could, you could call that Mormon culture. It makes sense, man. Or you could even call it

14:49

Latter -day Saint culture. But, you know, um, even that is suspect for some

14:54

Mormons today. They don't want to be called Latter -day Saints. They want to be called members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

15:00

Saint. It's true. You know, I've noticed actually, um, I've gotten so used to saying

15:05

Latter -day Saint in our evangelism. So as to not be some sort of stumbling block, but I really don't think it bothers them a whole lot.

15:15

There's only a few where I've said Mormon and you know, they get upset. It's in their back pocket when they get upset.

15:21

Yeah. Yeah. They can pull it out. But what's interesting is when we, uh, have put publications out or, you know, made an online post or something about our, our evangelism,

15:34

I've had Christians who are in other parts of the country go, what are Latter -day

15:40

Saints? What's LDS? It's actually like very foreign to people outside of maybe the

15:46

West coast or Utah. And, uh, they don't know them by that at all. So I think, I think you're absolutely right.

15:52

As far as like communicating to the world, how to reach these people, we need to call them Mormons lovingly, but Mormons, it's not, it's not derogatory.

16:01

It's, it's no more derogatory than for, for them to call me an apostate, which I consider derogatory, but, um, because I used to be a

16:08

Mormon, here's another factor, um, that has influenced our thinking about this is so that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

16:15

Saints, that's a mouthful. Yeah. And so I don't want to say in, in take up space in the book and, and have people going like what the missionaries from the church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

16:26

Saints, and it'd be like, it increased the length of the book by 50 % probably. Right. But, um, the, the shorthand that they suggest is sent to church of Jesus Christ.

16:35

I can't say that. That's a, that's a truth claim that I, that I don't accept. Ooh. Um, so, so I'm sorry, but, um, you know,

16:43

I, if I can't accept that truth claim that they are the church of Jesus Christ, then I'm going to use just to try it in true, just because they have enough money to buy that web domain doesn't make it true.

16:53

Right. Wait, what? Yeah. The church of Jesus Christ .org or whatever. That's their thing. Church of, yeah. Yeah. Something like that.

16:59

But, um, yeah. And I like how you put that because, uh, the, the Mormons are always trying to con or Mormonism is always trying to constantly redefine terms or change things.

17:08

And this book goes over the preach my gospel manual. It's the handbook, uh, that Mormon missionaries go through and they learn from, and they teach actually, uh, what they would say, quote, unquote, investigators when they come to your door.

17:21

Can you explain that just a little bit? What is an investigator? What is the preach my gospel handbook and how is it used?

17:26

Right. And investigators, anyone who's engaged in the missionary lessons, who's thinking about possibly joining the

17:33

Mormon church, that's the terminology they use. They call them investigators. So, um, the preach my gospel.

17:40

So going way back, the Mormon missionaries used to have a six lesson program and it was pretty structured.

17:49

They would take you through the lessons. Very, it's kind of rigid in 2004.

17:54

They realized, oh, that has some limitations. It's cutting down on maybe people's sense of,

17:59

I don't know, belonging or owning this and missionaries were struggling a little bit. So, so they said, we're going to create a new system.

18:08

So it's been around for almost 20 years, preach my gospel. This new system says, here's these five core lessons, but you're going to have a lot of latitude in terms of how you teach them.

18:19

And so they'll give you a lot. So the preach my gospel is not only the core lessons, but it's also a lot of. Uh, material for the missionary to help them think about, oh, here's how to use this material.

18:30

Uh, here, here's how to answer these certain questions. Oh, and here's about, here's what you need to do to be successful.

18:36

You know, like be sure you're praying every day or, or whatever those things. So there's a lot of stuff in the manual, but we're interested in those five core lessons because that's the

18:46

Mormon missionary message. Um, as we say in the title. And so the preach my gospel basically is what missionaries are taught to present to investigators, um, about what

18:59

Mormonism means and how to get a person to the point of, uh, converting to join the

19:05

Mormon church. Yeah, that makes sense. So when thinking of a Mormon who comes and speaks to a

19:11

Christian, um, how, how do they use Christian terminology to essentially create a doctrine of confusion for the individual and like, how can this, something like this be helpful for a

19:24

Christian or for, for anybody in general? Yeah, this has always been one of the biggest challenges of having faith conversations or evangelizing, uh,

19:32

Mormons is that they use the same vocabulary, but with different meanings. So Mormonism does have a role for the

19:39

Bible and Joseph Smith is, was coming out of a milieu where the

19:45

Bible was commonly known and understood. And so he particularly chose to use that, uh, the norms of that milieu to create this new religion.

19:55

And so the book of Mormon, um, it, it reads a lot like the

20:00

King James version. I mean, there's lots of questions about like, why would he still be writing in the King James version, you know, 200 years after the

20:08

King James language was used anywhere, but, um, but nevertheless, this is, so this is the milieu that he's in and so he's, he's framing

20:16

Mormonism, not just as a new thing, but in fact, not even a new thing at all.

20:22

He's framing Mormonism as the restoration of original Christianity. And so this is the church that Jesus founded.

20:28

It was lost from the earth through apostasy. God is going to restore it through Joseph Smith. And so, um, to be able to create that sense of continuity and that sense of legitimacy, he uses biblical stories, biblical language and so forth.

20:44

So, but with entirely new meaning. And so it's really easy for a person who's talking to LDS missionaries to go,

20:50

Oh, you're, you, you, you talk about salvation. You talk about faith, you talk about repentance, all these other things.

20:57

Um, and I know that I'm familiar with that because somebody, I grew up in church, um, or when

21:03

I go to church, you know, once or twice a year, they're talking about those kinds of things. Right.

21:08

Um, but without realizing, Oh my gosh, there's a whole different meaning that's invested in any of those particular terms.

21:15

And so it is deceptive. It is easy to, to go, Oh, these, these guys are Christians too. Oh, my

21:21

Mormon dentist, you know, Oh, he's a great guy, you know? And, um, Oh, you know, he sounds like he, like he's a

21:26

Christian and Mormonism must be just another denomination. Right. Yeah. So how do we navigate that conversation then?

21:33

Because it's like in one hand it's deceptive, but also in the other hand, the people who are spreading the message are deceived themselves.

21:39

Right. So like as a Christian being able to be equipped to use something like this, that goes through the handbook to not sweep the legs out from somebody, but instead to help them see the truth.

21:50

Right. Is that, is that part of it? That's a big part of it because we recognize, so the book has the book.

21:56

It has the content of it interacts with each of those five missionary lessons.

22:03

And we actually, what we did was we recruited former Mormon missionaries who are now followers of Jesus.

22:10

And so each one of them can speak with some authority about it. They can, they can talk about how, Oh, this is what we said, and this is how, what we meant by that.

22:19

And then they share their story of, of how they came to faith since their mission and not the things that God did and how they now come to understand things more biblically and so forth.

22:28

So, so there's a credibility there. Um, and that's what, one of the reasons we wrote, wrote the book to help, help that happen.

22:36

But for the person who is, so, all right, I'll give you an example.

22:41

I just, I recently met with the Mormon missionaries that we had, we had five or six weeks together. And, and I assume they come in.

22:48

I assume that they're not consciously trying to deceive me. They've been, they've bought into, you know, they've been deceived themselves, like you said.

22:56

Right. Um, they're not consciously trying to, so, so I want, I want to understand what they're really ultimately saying.

23:02

And I want to share with them ultimately how, what I follow and what I've committed to is different.

23:07

And so it just spent a lot less, less, a lot of questions. I just spent a lot of time asking them, you know, because I realized that first of all, um, you don't really know what any

23:18

Latter -day Saint believes until they tell you, you know? So I, in fact, one of these missionaries had some idiosyncratic views.

23:26

I said, well, that's really different from when I grew up Mormonism and in Mormonism, you know? So let's talk about that.

23:31

And he had some, you know, some things that were kind of within the, the broad, uh, parameters of, of Mormon thinking, but, but they were unique to him a little bit and I hadn't heard like those things necessarily.

23:43

Like what, for example, do you remember? Well, um, he believed this is really interesting.

23:49

It's an interesting, uh, conversation we had on this. He believes that God was not once a man.

23:57

Okay. I've heard this on the streets in Provo many different times. He believed, he believes that God was always

24:03

God that he is, but, but all the rest about Mormonism, the Mormon idea of God, he believes that he, he believes that we could become gods.

24:13

So God was not a unique being in the sense that other than he always existed as God and he did not become

24:22

God. And that's how, how we're different in their thinking that we did not always exist as God, but we could become

24:29

God by following the ordinances. And so doesn't that undermine the doctrine of exaltation and eternal progression though?

24:37

I mean, I mean, you would think, you'd think it would, you'd think it would. We talked about that. So, so what he's trying to maintain is this critique of Mormonism, biblical critique of Mormonism is that it,

24:47

God's a contingent being, and that, you know, if God was not always God, um, then, you know, maybe

24:55

God never lived a mortal life or, um, you guys interviewed Aaron Shavaloff recently, maybe

25:00

God never sinned, right, you know, because he didn't have a mortal life and so forth. So they're trying to preserve a certain, uh, dignity or a certain ontological quality for God, yet they still want to maintain the, the whole thing about eternal progression.

25:14

So they apply it to the rest of us in a way and say it was, so that was creative. So what do you think about Jesus then?

25:21

Um, yeah, that he, I think, I think he, he accepted pretty much.

25:27

Um, it seemed like the traditional LDS perspective on Jesus, that Jesus did have to become

25:34

God, man. See, that's where it gets, that's where it all starts falling apart because then Jesus is still not the eternal

25:40

God. There can be only one God to them who is the father that they worship through Jesus Christ, which is odd.

25:45

What's up everybody. If you are blessed by this content and you want to support the gospel's proclamation to the Colts while equipping the church to combat deception, then come join us and become a

25:54

Coltish all access member. You'll get an ad free experience and exclusive content like Coltish the water cooler, where you hang out with Jeremiah and myself as we go live and interact with all of our members.

26:05

You'll also get early release of episodes one to two weeks early. On top of all of that, there's also

26:11

Coltish the aftermath. It's an after show commentary where we get to say all of the things that they won't let us.

26:16

On top of that, you get all of the other training on apologyistudios .com. Come be one of us, head over to the

26:22

Coltish show .com or follow the link in the show notes and click the join button directly support the work of this ministry as the mission is completely funded by you, our listener last week on the streets, we had somebody speaking with a

26:37

LDS trainer at the MTC. And what did, what did that trainer say? Pastor Wade? Basically they're a teacher trainer at the

26:47

Mormon MTC, which is for people who don't know that's where all missionaries for the

26:54

LDS church go across the whole world to come to get trained, to be sent out as missionaries.

27:01

And she expressed that she believes the church is 100 % false.

27:09

And yet she remains there. I mean, we're talking someone who is to instruct people on the lessons you're speaking about doesn't believe any of it.

27:20

She's invested in propagating this false idea, huh? Yeah. It was so fascinating. Yeah. It was unbelievable, but you know,

27:27

I, I find it interesting. You know we are often critiqued as Protestant Christians, evangelical

27:36

Christians for, you know, all the denominations that we have. We know there's this you know, this

27:42

I forget the source, but talking about the 40 ,000 denominations and how that's counted in a multiplication way.

27:51

If it's in different countries and not, it includes Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons. So with all that said,

28:01

I find the overwhelming message of the Bible and the Christian church to be unification, not only relationally, spiritually, but also even doctrinally as much as we can.

28:15

And I think in that way, denominations can be a grace because God knows that we're imperfect and we're going to have small differences that are not going to attack core values.

28:26

So we're united on these core things that really are the main aspects of the gospel.

28:37

But what's interesting is, is from what you're saying, Pastor Ross, is that really

28:42

Mormonism creates an ability for lack of a better term,

28:50

Burger King, have it your way. It's like, you know, you really can take what you want here from the smorgasbord and you can pull from here and it really allows for that.

29:02

And, and I don't say that lightly. Someone might be listening and say, you know what?

29:10

No, these are our beliefs. This is what we teach in our chapels. This is what we teach from general conference.

29:17

Yeah, I get it. But what we've encountered, our sample size for the last several years has been all across the board.

29:27

So that must be challenging even trying to make a book that is trying to blanket across people who are so squishy or changing or, or, or whatever, you know?

29:40

Well, you know, that's a great point. And I've always said that really as an observer of Mormon culture over the decades, that Mormonism is not interested in in orthodoxy, its own version of orthodoxy, whatever.

29:56

It's interested in orthopraxy. It's, they don't care what you believe. Now, as long as you don't like try to get followers or as long as you don't try to like verbally, openly oppose what the general authorities are saying, you can believe whatever you want to.

30:12

What they really care about is that you're loyal. They care about your investment in the story, in the, in the historical story of Mormonism and your loyalty to the, to the institutional

30:23

Mormon church. So that's why there's so much room as you've experienced in conversation with so many people, there's so much room for this, these variations.

30:31

Now, the thing about the book, because the missionary message is somewhat defined by this preach my gospel, you know, but the thing is it's, it's very basic.

30:43

It doesn't go into any of the things that you know, people might speculate about or the in conversation that might come up or whatever it, it doesn't, it has a very generic and very kind of low level approach to, this is the core stuff of Mormonism.

31:02

So for example, the first chapter in preach my gospel that we address in our chapter just has to do with the restoration of Mormon, the apostasy of original

31:11

Christianity and the restoration of Mormonism. And that's not, there's not a lot of theological stuff there. Well, there certainly is implied theological stuff about the character of God and so forth.

31:22

Is God able to preserve what he began? And so, et cetera. But but it's, it's more about a historical argument.

31:28

It's more about an experiential argument and don't you wish, whatever. And then the second chapter goes into the idea of what is the plan of salvation?

31:40

And that that's the Mormon story. They call it the plan of happiness. Sometimes that's the, that's the

31:45

Mormon meta narrative of this is, you know, where things began, this is what happened next.

31:51

This is how things were created. This is where you fit in. This is your life. This is what happens in the end. So that's the most theological part of it.

31:58

But it's, what's interesting is that in, this is the LDS culture again, is that their theological truths or claims, truth claims are really not embedded in a statement of faith.

32:12

There's no, Mormonism doesn't have a statement of faith. Articles of faith is the closest thing and it's not exhaustive.

32:20

But Mormonism, Mormon's truth claims are embedded in stories and that's essential to, to the

32:26

Mormon culture. So this is this story we're going to say, we're going to share with you this, this grand story that has this eternal sweep and you want it, we want you to see your place in the story.

32:36

And so, yeah, biblical Christianity is a story too, you know, and so sometimes

32:41

I think, I think Protestant Christians, we get into a little bit too much systematic theology at times.

32:49

I'm very much in favor of systematic theology because it defines things and you know where you stand, but, but the idea is that the

32:55

Bible is also a story. So we can engage Mormons in their, in their cultural narrative because we have a, we have the story that trumps their story in a sense, you know, and then they talk about then the

33:07

God, what they, their version of the gospel and they talk about the role of Jesus and how do we, how do we have to adopt that by our obedience and so forth.

33:16

So, so when, so two things, like when we talk to the missionaries and we talk to active

33:25

Latter -day Saints who maybe were missionaries or whatever, there's going to be a lot of continuity and centrality of this kind of, these kinds of level things.

33:35

But again, like I experienced when talking to my missionaries earlier this year, there's also a certain amount of intrinsic sort of variation based on their own.

33:48

So this guy that we were mentioning earlier, he's smart kid, very smart, very educated himself, read a lot of stuff.

33:57

And his companion was, he hardly ever spoke, you know, he had, I had to really dig him, draw him out a little bit to find, and he's, he came into Mormonism because he had a experience as a teenager where he had a broken family and he got involved in some trouble, he went to rehab and, and this provided him,

34:18

Mormonism provided him some structure and some people who cared about him and stuff like that. So their experiences are so different with, from each other.

34:26

And I think that's worth keeping in mind. We say that our book is a guideline and it's helpful, but it's not like, it's not like the silver bullet or it's not like,

34:35

Hey, say this and then say this, you know? I like that because for the sake of our listeners, if you're interested in this book, it sounds like it doesn't matter what level you're at, it's going to apply to whatever sort of local

34:51

Mormon ministry that you have. You know, if you're worried about, I don't know all the obscure things.

34:58

Well, that's just fine. This isn't going to go into the obscure things. And then the second encouragement

35:04

I got from you there, which was great is just if you're, if you're thinking about your faith, if you're thinking about the

35:11

Bible, if you're thinking about the gospel in such a way where it's the best and most amazing story that's ever been given in the history of the world, then that's a great starting point too.

35:24

Cause I, I do think sometimes, and I tell our guys like, it's great. You're hitting on this doctrine and sin and you know the anthropology and, and, you know, the doctrine of salvation and that's fine, but let's not forget to, to give the greatest story ever told, ever, ever acted out.

35:49

And, and really it's, it's, it's just the glory of the gospel. And so sometimes, you know, when we're having these conversations and we're hitting the theology and stuff, you know,

36:00

I kind of see them rubbernecking a little bit, they're turning around, but then said, snap out of it, just give the glory of the gospel from, from God created everything.

36:10

He's always been God, you know, and, and man fell. And, and this, and you just go into it and talk about what

36:16

Christ did. Then I see them captivated and it's like, oh, this is huge. So anyways again, the other encouragement is if you don't know a whole lot of systematic theology, but you know, the gospel that's, that's what it is.

36:32

Yeah. So it's, it's beneficial to have a conversation when you're having conversation with Mormons to of course, get into theology with the right definitions for them patiently.

36:43

And then give the gospel, because if you're giving the right definitions for Jesus God, the father salvation the gospel itself, but you're not giving the gospel, you've just castrated the meaning of all the actual terms you have to get to the gospel.

37:00

That's, that's the reality of the conversation. And the benefit of a book like this is it actually helps you get into the person's shoes that you were speaking to, because if you're not coming to them at their level, like Jesus would come to people at their level.

37:12

He does it all of the time. Then you're not actually truly loving your neighbor in the conversation. Yeah. Right. Because we need to be able to understand how they're thinking in order to best engage them.

37:24

Right. And that's, that's part of the helpfulness of the book. Yeah. And that's, that's really one reason why Andrew, why we wrote the first chapter is on culture.

37:32

So we thought, you know, Hey, if we don't take into account or are aware of the cultural traits, then we're assuming that everybody has the same culture that I do.

37:41

Then, then that's going to be a bypass, a meaningful conversation that we thought about, like, okay, if you're a missionary and you're going to Thailand, you're going to study

37:52

Buddhism, but you're also, you're not going to, I learned this because we were in Thailand, doing some work with a local church there that was doing really well.

38:02

And they said, I said, how much you talk about Buddhism? He says, we don't talk about Buddhism much.

38:08

We understand, you know, they, they were, they came out of that framework. They were a Thai people, but they understand it, but they talk about the gospel, but they talk about the gospel in a way that's informed by the cultural understanding of it.

38:21

So, so just Wade, what you're saying, like the two aspects of, of Mormon culture, one of them is, again, it's a narrative.

38:29

And so that's why, that's why they're probably like going, checking out when you're, when we're talking about systematics and we're talking about, you know, kind of a factual kind of cognitive approach.

38:40

And then when you kick into narrative, they go, Oh, that makes sense to me. They're not thinking about it in those terms, but it connects with their culture.

38:48

And, and that's, that's why, and also then you're talking about the gospel, you're talking about your own experience.

38:53

And that's a big part of Mormon culture too, is that they have an experiential way to, it's an experiential epistemology.

39:01

Let's say they, that's how they note what's true because they've had a certain experience. So when I share my experience, again,

39:08

I'm, I'm moving into that space a little bit and say, I'm going to redeem that space with, with, with the gospel and my experience with the gospel.

39:15

And then it clicks and go, Oh, now you're talking my language, you know? And so we can bring the truth then into narrative form, into experiential form.

39:24

Now for Christians experience, it's a valid part of the Christian life.

39:30

It doesn't trump scripture. It doesn't, for Mormonism, in Mormonism experience trumps everything.

39:36

And it's how, you know, and so like, I don't know, you guys have probably had plenty of people who've said, Oh, I don't care if you could prove to me that Joseph Smith was a false prophet or whatever.

39:45

I know the church is true. And they mean, cause I had an experience that demonstrated and validated that for me. And so, so sometimes

39:52

Christians in witnessing to Mormons have said, well, we're just not going to go to experience.

39:57

We're not going to talk, we're going to like exclude the whole conversation about experience because it's, because they're going to use it that way.

40:03

And I'm saying, no, that's a significant way to talk to them by comparing my experience is

40:10

I've had meaningful experiences with Jesus and God has led me in, in different ways, but it's all, it's all governed by scripture.

40:17

It's all secondary, but it's not unreal. It's real. Right. I want to talk about my experience.

40:22

What's up everybody. It's the super sleuth here, letting you know that you can go to shop cultish .com and get all of our exclusive cultish merch.

40:30

There's the bad theology hurts people shirt. Jerry wears it all the time. I wear it all the time. Sometimes we wear it at the same time without even trying to have that happen on the show.

40:38

And we're just like, Whoa, you're wearing the shirt. I'm wearing the shirt. You could wear the shirt to go to shop cultish .com today and get your exclusive cultish merch.

40:46

Talk to you later, guys. You know, that reminds me, we just actually finished a, a weekly

40:52

Bible study in the book of acts, and I think it's three separate occasions where the apostle

40:58

Paul, uh, tells his experience once again on the road to Damascus, he, he retells the account, but then he always couples it with the truth of the risen

41:10

Christ. So he gives us more than what we actually saw in acts nine, but he also gives us what he experienced in acts nine and then he, and then he moves on.

41:21

So I think that is valid. We, we can get so, um, we, you know, in the

41:26

Christian life, you know, we, we often ping pong, right? We go from one side to the other and the course correction here is like, don't give your testimony.

41:35

Um, don't say anything personal, just go with what the Bible and we're pretty suppositional. I'm, I'm all about it's, it's starting with the

41:42

Bible. It's ending with the Bible, but you know, God saved people. I don't want to remove the, the, the person part of it.

41:49

He didn't save, you know, this, this classification of salvation didn't come over this, uh, this empty shell of a, uh, no,

41:58

I'm a real person and something happened to me. And, but of course I, I don't divorce that from the truth.

42:04

Sure. And so, yeah, I think the apostle Paul is a great example there for that. Yeah. That's a great point.

42:09

The book of acts always gives us such great lessons from Paul. Like in act 17, when he goes and preaches at the area,

42:15

Areopagus in Athens, what does he do? He levels with them in their culture. I see you have a statue here to the unknown

42:20

God, but then he corrects right. And gives them the gospel. Like we have him meeting them where they're at, understanding that God has revealed himself to all men through his creation, right?

42:32

General revelation. Yet we suppress the truth and unrighteousness and we worship gods of our own creation rather than the creator of all things.

42:38

So what does he do? He says, I see where you're at and now here's the truth. Let's get to it. And it's a beautiful thing.

42:44

I think even through experience, we must have the wisdom in terms of navigating a conversation where we can actually level with someone and it can be helpful for helpful for the

42:53

LDS person. Cause they can be thinking to themselves like, wow, they're experiencing something too, right? I'm not the only one experiencing something.

43:00

So how do you navigate then pastor Ross going from the heart to the head? Right. Uh, in terms of them understanding that it's not their experience that dictates the truth of scripture, but it's scripture that dictates the truth of your experience.

43:15

Yeah. So Corey Miller, my coauthor, he's, um, he's a trained apologetics leader.

43:22

He's a leader of a group called ratio Christie that establishes apologetics ministry on campuses.

43:30

And so, um, so he wrote, so my, my forte is in culture.

43:35

I wrote chapter one is forte and apologetics. He wrote chapter two and exactly what you're asking.

43:41

He talks about how to engage and interact with the Mormon testimony. So, which is like, okay, it's not necessarily an essential of Mormon doctrine, but it's an essential of conversation because it's the refuge.

43:55

Uh, if they're, if they're stomped or if they can't figure out how to answer what we say biblically, they're going to go like, whoa, um, the pull out the testimony card and go,

44:05

I know the church is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, et cetera. And all that, there's, there's five or six things that seem to get repeated over and over again.

44:13

So Corey has a very thoughtful in, in that chapter, very thoughtful engagement with the testimony.

44:20

He says, um, he uses what he calls a police lineup illustration. And so a police lineup is you're going to have a bunch of people behind a glass and they all look pretty similar, but one of them is the criminal and you're going to have to discern which one actually is the criminal.

44:36

And so in this case, you flip that, you say, well, we have, uh, people who look, maybe any of similar claims, they're claiming a testimony, one of them is maybe true and we have to discern which one is, is not the criminal, but which one might be true.

44:51

Well, but you know, maybe all of them are the criminal or maybe none of them are true, but so he says, um, so what

44:58

I've done in the past is I I've said, oh, well, every world religion has experiential component.

45:05

And I talked to the LDS person say, well, you know, the Hindu person had an experience. How do you know yours? Trump's theirs.

45:11

Right. And so forth. Um, but Corey takes it one step further, which is really smart. He says he draws it from the, um, all the, the

45:21

Mormon offshoot groups. And he says, okay, well, the, the person who represents the fundamentalist

45:29

Mormonism, he has a testimony of Joseph Smith. He believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and they have apostles and prophets and so forth in, in kind of a restored thing.

45:39

And then he'll say, what about the community of Christ? You know, that they have, you know, they believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet or whatever you could bring in, you know, the

45:46

Bickertonites and the Strangites has been a million different, uh, offshoot groups. But so Corey, so he, it's interesting cause he's, he, he put, brings it home a little bit because it puts it within their family, their historical family.

45:59

Um, and so, and it says the testimony is the same. It's not like I have a testimony, you know, that, um, um, that God is

46:07

Brahman or something like that. Right. But I have a test. I have it. So they're all saying, I have a testimony of Joseph Smith.

46:12

They're all saying, I believe in that, that of an apostasy in there, we have new prophets and new apostles that are authorized by God.

46:19

So that that's speaking their language. You're going, oh, well, how do you know which one of those is correct? And so let's say, uh, well, what are, are they all deceiving?

46:29

And well, they'll, they'll typically go, no, no, they'll want to be a little bit. You know, uh, polite and say, no, they're not, maybe they're being deceived.

46:36

And so his point is like, oh, so you could have a subjective testimony of these things and still be deceived.

46:42

Oh, what about that? He lets that just sink in and lets it just kind of percolate in their thinking.

46:48

And, and so then he goes, well, how do you know then which one is real at with, and then how do you know then that yours is real?

46:58

And then he comes to, um, he, he closes with 1 John chapter five, which talks about, this is the testimony.

47:05

God has given us a testimony of a confidence and assurance that if you have the son, you have life.

47:11

You know, that, that this is, he says, I know for sure. Here's my test. Then he bears his own testimony based on scripture and connecting with God's testimony.

47:20

So we have this testimony as Christians. It's not just subjective, but it's backed up by, by the authority of scripture and the, and the credibility of what scripture says.

47:30

So he addresses that question, um, with the person who brings the testimony forward, he has some ways to think about how to talk about that with him, how to, uh, with the missionary, the person, you know, they're not gonna, you know, bow the knee to Jesus today.

47:48

They there's too much social control. There's too many factors in their experience.

47:53

They can't go home with honor and so forth. If they cut, if they're kicked off the mission or whatever.

48:00

Um, but one of the things that our book shows is that all these people who went on missions, who are now following Christ, who wrote the chapters that they, they all talk about an encounter with a

48:11

Christian that they didn't see coming. Someone who's polite to them, but who raised a point, made him think about the nature of God or made him think about, and it stuck with them and it bore fruit later on.

48:22

And so Corey's idea with the testimony is that if you can, every time they bear their testimony, they have a doubt.

48:30

They, they, they, it causes them to think about the conversation and say, Oh, maybe my testimony is no more valid than somebody else's story.

48:37

Right. And that, that could create, you know, maybe some, something that is at work in their heart, uh, when they leave their mission and go back home.

48:46

Yeah. You know, man, this is really good. I, um, I'm just thinking about the fact that, you know, we, we have a lot of people who love to listen to cultish or apologia who love to do evangelism.

48:58

And, um, it seems so easy to, um, really take a symbol of the whole

49:08

Mormon church and its history in your mind and to slap it over the person who's a

49:14

Mormon in front of you. And so then everything that we've ever known, every sort of, uh, idea we've had to, um, you know, argue with in our minds, as we look at the scripture and see the discrepancies and the contradictions and the errors and the heresies, we then throw it at the person with the symbol of the church in front of them, instead of looking at them as a person who just needs to hear the truth.

49:41

And, uh, and, and so we've got to make it more personal. Um, you know, uh, we're, we're always thinking we're some sort of apologist on YouTube or something like that.

49:54

No, just connect with these people in this sort of way. And that's going to, God's going to use that.

50:00

Just be faithful with that. Yeah. Especially, especially right now within, uh,

50:05

Mormonism, there's so many people that are starting to believe so many different things. There's all these weird internal fragmentations where the children don't even believe the same thing their parents believe, but they're supposed to be an eternal family though their doctrines differ so massively.

50:18

Uh, like you said, there was a young man who believed that God was never a man. I mean, the King Follett discourse,

50:25

Joseph Smith says all revelation prior about God is that knowledge that compares to the beasts of the field that God was once a man was the pinnacle of all knowledge coming from Joseph Smith.

50:35

Uh, so differing from that is a big deal, right? But there's this weird, uh, cognitive dissonance or grasping at straws that young LDS people are starting to do.

50:46

And a lot of it is hinged upon their experience, like what we're talking about. So a really good way to help them understand, or even cut through the minutia of difference of doctrine that all these different LDS people have.

50:58

Cause we find that on the streets, I ask them all the time. I'm like, well, what do you believe now? I've learned to do that within the last two years of being here.

51:04

Like, what do you believe? Uh, one good way to cut through that, uh, minutia is to say, well, all of what you believe hinges upon your experience.

51:13

So if I can get you to ask a question to yourself, it may not be today where you will, you know, of course, bow your knee to Christ or even question your experience.

51:21

But if I can put that pebble in your shoe to make you go, well, how do I know that the spirit that bore witness to me was actually the spirit of God, uh, in a wise way to do that is just to treat another individual like they're a human being, uh, and not like, uh, the

51:37

Mormon temple in front of you. Like talking about experience. That's great. Um, I think even thinking about the experience you're making with them in that moment, that's, that's kind of even what, what, what

51:50

I am hearing from you as well, cause I grew up in the kind of family where, uh, if they came to our door, we grew up in Southern California and Phoenix, Arizona, and it was just like, you're not a

52:01

Christian slam the door. I'm not even kidding. I mean, we just wouldn't even deal with it in California. Yeah.

52:07

Oh, we would just, Oh, absolutely. And, uh, you know, um, and so talking about, and it's interesting, all, all the, the, um, books of testimonies and autobiographies of people who used to be missionaries or Mormons in general, and have come to Christ, they often one similar thread in them all is they had this moment with a

52:33

Christian who took the time with them and didn't yell at them and cared enough to come to their level and talk.

52:40

They didn't stray away from the truth. In fact, they would sometimes express, I was angry with what they said, you know, it bothered me, but then it stuck with them.

52:49

So talking about experience, um, it's thinking about what are you making even in that moment right then?

52:57

And, um, you know, how does that honor God foremost, but also are we treating this person like the

53:04

SIM, the Mormon church symbol over them or like someone who, who needs to truly hear, hear the truth?

53:10

Yeah, that's really great. That's so true. That's what we try to do in the book. And, and, and really, but the,

53:16

I think it, you know, I think it really has a strong one, two punch. I think it has a great cognitive and also a great affective.

53:25

Or so speaking to mind and emotion at the same time or attitude, because, um, we can see how these guys were treated when they were on missions and, and you hear that when you talk to return missionaries, they're by and large, um, their experience with Bible Christians by believing

53:44

Christians is not always positive. And so many of them have never had a conversation or many of them have experienced the negatives, you know, you got to fix that guys.

53:55

Yeah, totally. And it's so, because it, you know, right now we feel like is a moment of opportunity in, in more in the

54:03

Mormon church, because like you said, Andrew, there's so many people with just kind of figuring, trying to figure it out for themselves, they're open, they're open to ideas.

54:12

Um, there, there's so many of the younger generation, they're not as loyal to, um,

54:18

Mormon institutions as they used to be Mormon authority as they used to be.

54:23

There's a, there was a great study done a couple of years ago called, uh, in a book called the next Mormons by Jana Reese.

54:30

She's a sociologist historian. She did this broad historical or sociological study that showed how are the generations different?

54:38

And she says, you know, you have this, this, um, you know, you have these boomers and they, they have a certain approach to Mormonism and you have the, you have the younger gen

54:47

X, whatever, they have a certain, and then the millennials, she didn't go below the millennials, but, um, most of her focus was on the millennial generation.

54:55

And this is how their experience of Mormonism and their loyalty to Mormonism is different from, you know, the boomers and, and it's how it's change within Mormonism.

55:05

And that to me, that suggests there's tons of opportunity, um, to, you know, and I appreciate you guys who are out there, you know, having conversations with real people, but Wade, what you're saying about, um, responding to humans rather than responding to, you know, this picture in my mind of what

55:23

Mormonism is. Um, that's, that's huge because it's such a time of opportunity right now.

55:29

They need the truth that they need the truth. This is a great way to end this first episode. The second one, uh, when we get back, we're going to get more into parts of the preach my gospel handbook and the changes they've made to the handbook since the book's been released, but that gives you guys another opportunity to respond again to that.

55:46

So, uh, thank you everybody for listening to this episode of cultish and, uh, pastor

55:51

Ross, where can people find you? Where can they find this book and buy it? Well, we created a website to talk, help people about the book.

55:58

It's called Mormon missionary message .com. Mormon missionary message .com.

56:04

And honestly, you can, you can purchase the book anywhere you buy books. It's on Amazon. It's Barnes and Noble, Christian book distributors, the publisher.

56:12

You'd find that they have a discount. Sometimes you can find that website on the Mormon missionary message .com,

56:18

or you could order it from wherever you order books. Praise God. Well, thank you guys for listening and tuning in here.

56:25

Uh, we'll catch you next time. As we enter into the kingdom of the cults, can't wait to get the next episode in the series.

56:31

Then join the cultish all access, get early release of these series to quench those binging desires.

56:36

Along with a host of amazing perks, head over to the cultist show .com or follow the link in the description and start listening to the full series while supporting this mission.